Transcript:
This podcast was transcribed through a third-party application. Please disregard any misrepresentations.
Introduction:
Welcome to the NextGen Legal podcast, candid conversations with the next generation leaders in the legal industry about new ways of doing business in a rapidly evolving legal market. Now here’s your host, Marci Taylor.
Marci Taylor:
Hi, welcome to the NextGen Legal podcast. I’m Marci Taylor from Withum’s Law Firm Advisory Team, and I’m really excited to have Virginia Essandoh today. She is the chief diversity officer for Ballard Spahr. Welcome Virginia.
Virginia Essandoh:
Thank you, Marci. I’m happy to be here.
Marci Taylor:
Would you mind telling our listeners a little bit about your background and how long you’ve been at Ballard Spahr?
Virginia Essandoh:
Sure. I have been at Ballard 14 years and I started out as chief diversity officer and I actually started out as director of diversity and then chief diversity officer. And now my title is chief diversity equity and inclusion officer prior to doing this work at Ballard. I was a senior consultant at Altman Weil, and then prior to that, I was in law school at what is now the university of Illinois, Chicago School of Law in Chicago. Great. And so that work at Altman Weil perfectly positioned me to understand strategy law firm, strategy law firm management organization, and put me in a great position for this role at valor
Marci Taylor:
In full disclosure, we worked together at Altman Weil we were youngins back then. Doing strategy management and marketing and consulting with law firms all around the country. And that’s how we kind of cut our teeth and yep. Got into this world of legal management. So it’s so good to see you and I look forward to our conversation. So I’m gonna open with a really broad question. So I hope it’s not unfair. Where are we as a profession with diversity equity and inclusion? Now it seems that there’s been a focus on it for quite some time, but the focus seems to have been highlighted in the last two years. To me, what’s your sense of where we are.
Virginia Essandoh:
We are always and have always been in a state of evolution and this work evolves daily, quite frankly. And the great thing about the profession is that law firms are evolving. We are recognizing when we have to rethink how we hire people, who we hire our processes, how do we attract clients and the best clients, how do we approach our clients? Because the firm is evolving and trying to grow, firms are trying to grow. I think the state of diversity equity inclusion in law firms has continued to evolve, which is a great thing. Yes, I think we are in a good place right now. Believe it or not, we’re in a good place where firms are paying attention to what’s happening externally, not just in the legal market, but what’s happening in society and being responsive. There was a time when I think firms could ignore or tried to ignore what was happening in society and its impact on the people who work in the firm and the impact on what their clients expect. Law firms recognize now that they need to be cognizant of and need to be empathetic with what’s happening in society and how it not just impacts the people who work for them, but the clients and their expectations of who they want doing their work for them. So I feel good about where we are in the profession, because I know we will keep getting better.
Marci Taylor:
Cool. And I know you’re very modest, but you’re really a leader in this area and you’ve been leading the evolution, I think for, 14 years and more so kudos to you on everything you’ve done to make the profession advance. I see what you’re saying about firms responding to what’s happening in society. I feel like the response time is quicker now.
Virginia Essandoh:
Marci Taylor:
I feel like in the past it took a while for law firms to catch up, but now with the events that are happening in our world, I feel like law firms are quicker to respond and that’s really impressive.
Virginia Essandoh:
Yeah. I think it’s because of the structures that now law firms have in place. Right? So firms have affinity groups, or as we call them at Ballard business resource groups, who can help and who are empowered to help leaders respond quickly. I think that we’ve seen an evolution of who’s in leadership and who who’s in management in law firms such that you have folks who are thinking about diversity equity inclusion as part of strategy. And so they’re quicker right. To respond because it is a part of who they are and how they lead so, absolutely I agree. But that’s a function of how firms have evolved internally and how they’re willing to listen to people. And they have structures in place to get feedback, immediate feedback. And they have structures in place to their marketing teams, understand when they have to respond and how they have to respond on social media. They have the tools and the resources to respond appropriately. They don’t have to be afraid of what they might say. And firms have had the opportunity to take a position on a lot of different things in the last several years so that they know where they stand. And so they’re not hesitant anymore.
Marci Taylor:
That’s interesting. And you know, you make a good point about having the structure in place. This is not something that happened overnight. This is something that has taken years, you know, I remember when firms first started hiring directors of diversity and now you have a team, right. It’s it’s not just you. How many people are on your team?
Virginia Essandoh:
So there are five of us in the diversity equity inclusion department at Ballard. I have a manager of diversity equity and inclusion. And I’ll tell you a little bit about that. Melissa Pang is our manager of diversity equity and inclusion. And her role is primarily focused on administrative staff. As you know, most of everything, including diversity equity and inclusion initiatives are focused on the lawyers because that’s what our clients wanna know. They wanna know about the demographics of the firm, the demographics of the lawyers who’s working on their teams, what is our commitment? And we found that we were focusing exclusively on the lawyers. And then I recognize that actually that’s all I can do is focus exclusively on lawyers and that we had to hire someone whose emphasis and focus would be on making sure we truly had an inclusive and holistic diversity equity inclusion strategy.
Virginia Essandoh:
And that meant how are we incorporating a very important part of the firm, our administrative team and our administrative professionals. And so our manager developed our strategy to incorporate our administrative professionals into our firm-wide strategy and make it truly firm-wide. She helped me understand that it really was not a firm-wide initiative, right? Until we were thinking about how and what we needed to do to make sure staff also felt a part of the firm, were getting educated at the same rate and level that our lawyers were getting educated about bias and unconscious bias, and just a sense of inclusion. And so that’s Melissa’s role. That’s our manager of diversity equity inclusion, and she’s doing a great job. We have two diversity coordinators and they spend the majority of their time, Marci, responding to clients who are asking us that’s, how prevalent it is in big law, clients asking about the demographics of the team.
Virginia Essandoh:
Who’s gonna be doing what, what are the demographics of the timekeepers? What is the utilization? What’s your succession plan for diversity? Like these are the things that our clients wanna know now. And our department completes that part of the response. We’ve also educated our marketing and business development team so that they are equally able to answer some of these questions that we get from our clients. And so the two coordinators focus primarily on just responding. Now we have a policy in place in which everything that comes through the marketing and business development department must come through our department. So every RFP that that is formally prepared by the marketing department and every pitch, we see them. And so we are able to talk about the team. We provide the analysis of the demographics. When the team is not diverse, we go back to the relationship partner or the proposal specialist to say, actually, we need to take another look at this and figure out what we could do better.
Virginia Essandoh:
And so that’s what our coordinators focus on. They also focus on overseeing, coordinating our business resource groups. We have eight active business resource groups that have business plans, and they’re very strategic. And so we have a coordinator, one of our coordinators, she focuses on keeping those business resource groups up to date and working on their business plans and keeping them focused. Our other coordinator, she is working with our working groups of the diversity council. We have a 40 some person, diversity equity inclusion council at Ballard, and they are split off in working groups, tackling different areas around equity. And so we have a coordinator who organizes their meetings, their agendas, their minutes, and keeps them on target with their goals, helps them make the presentation to the board about, you know, their topics. And then we have a diversity equity inclusion assistant who’s responsible for all of the sponsorships, as you can imagine, we do a lot of sponsorships across all offices. And so she keeps those organized for us as well.
Marci Taylor:
And I wanna be clear to our listeners, you’re a member of the management committee.
Virginia Essandoh:
I’m a member of the firm’s management committee and the expanded board. So we have a board and then we have an expanded board, which is a lot more inclusive. So yes, yes.
Marci Taylor:
So I think that’s fantastic that you have a seat at the table. And I think that’s hugely important for firms to make sure that they do. So I’m sure a lot of our listeners are not in big law and may not have the resources to have a team, the size of yours that can really tackle all these things. Do you have any advice for smaller or mid-size firms who would like to do more in the area of diversity, but you know, may not be able to extend the resources that a large firm can, what’s the best place for smaller and mid-size firms to start.
Virginia Essandoh:
This might not be popular, but I think it’s important that regardless of the size of the firm or organization, you have someone who’s dedicated at 100% to it. And we don’t always see that in smaller or mid-sized firms, it might be a partner or an associate who’s also tasked with handling and being strategic about this. And so that’s my biggest advice that is not popular, right? You need to hire a professional who can be focused exclusively and dig into to all aspects of it. So that’s my advice. And then you have to empower that person to really be able to look behind all the corners behind all the curtains and have access to information and to have a great working relationship with the HR professional, or HR professionals, so that they can collaborate. I think that firms, big firms have moved past the point of being hesitant in terms of collecting demographic information, smaller firms I find, and even some mid-size firms are still hesitant in asking people to self identify, right?
Virginia Essandoh:
And so I think that’s a good place to start get a process in place. You have to have a good explanation about why you’re asking and why you need it and why it’s important. And you have to be able to talk about how you won’t use it to limit opportunities, but you wanna have a good picture of where you can improve and where you can be better. So, have a focused explanation and commitment to diversity equity inclusion so that you can go out and gather information about your workplace and that demographic information, and always give people the option to disclose or consent to disclose or not to consent, right? You can get people’s information, but at the same time, give them the ability to say, I don’t want you to share this information outside of the firm or share it with people, with my name associated with it. You can just share it in the aggregate. So gather data so that you understand who you have and then you can benchmark it and understand where your opportunities are.
Marci Taylor:
That’s great advice and talking about getting information, we talk and I follow what you do. And I thought it was fascinating and it might be really interesting or potentially scary to our listeners that you’ve incorporated AI recently.
Virginia Essandoh:
We’re exploring AI. We’re exploring AI.
Marci Taylor:
So what does that mean then?
Virginia Essandoh:
What does that mean? We are working with a software and technology company, Relativity. People will probably be familiar with Relativity who is starting to explore how you can identify bias in performance evaluations. And so we worked with them to help them refine their software. We helped them identify what comments would be considered biased or troublesome in performance evaluations. You know, there are certain things that a lawyer will write that might appear to be troubling, but it actually isn’t like, it’s just a state of our term. And so we sort of helped educate their software. We input our performance evaluations, all the narrative comments and helped teach the software what to look for. We provided words and terminology that we find, and we educate our lawyers, are troublesome that we don’t wanna see in performance evaluations.
Virginia Essandoh:
For example, we might say, we told the software, if you see maternity leave or you see childcare, or you see per parental leave or paternity leave, just flag it and let’s take a closer look. And if that comment is related to, in the context of performance, it shouldn’t be there. But then it requires a little bit more teaching of the software. Well, let’s see how they used it. And so it is exciting. We’re still exploring it. And I say, explore because we’re helping the software kind of write itself as well. So yes, we’re, we’re excited. It helps me a lot because I, along with our attorney career advancement department, we look through all the performance evaluations and study them and having the software that could go in and find the things that we’re looking for, identify them. The opportunity for law firms will be explosive.
Marci Taylor:
Wow. That’s so fascinating.
Virginia Essandoh:
Is, it
Marci Taylor:
You’re kind of like the R & D department for this company in a way that’s really that’s cool stuff.
Virginia Essandoh:
Can I just say one thing, it’s interesting Marci, because I was expecting the software to come back and show us all this stuff. I can’t wait to get it back and show our lawyers, like all this – that didn’t happen. Like it came back and they didn’t find all the things that I expected to see. And then so I was a little bit disappointed. Then someone reminded me. They said, actually that means what you’ve been doing –
Marci Taylor:
Is working
Virginia Essandoh:
– over years is working like you don’t see those problem, problematic comments in narrative comments anymore because of the effort and the education that we do every year, right before it’s time for partners to write performance evaluations. We can, now what the software showed me is that we can see the results of educating people about how to write those comments.
Marci Taylor:
So that’ll be a great tool for chief diversity officers going forward. Especially if, you know, if the first time they would use software like this, it didn’t turn out that well. And they could
show improvement over time. I would imagine that those are great metrics to be able to have to demonstrate.
Virginia Essandoh:
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Marci Taylor:
Cool. I’m gonna switch gears a little bit and talk about culture. You know, you and I were doing strategic plans a long time ago. And when we would do strategic plans with firms, we talk about all the juicy stuff like profitability and how do we wanna grow geographically? And what do we want our practices to be? And then I always say, you know, on the last day of the last meeting, we’d say, oh, what about our culture? You know, should we say something about our culture in the strategic plan? Now culture is strategy in law firms. And so what in your experience is the relationship with diversity equity, inclusion, and firm culture? I know that’s a big question.
Virginia Essandoh:
It’s a big question. I love the quote that culture eats strategy for breakfast. I love, always love that quote. Culture is everything. And I’m actually studying the role of culture and its impact on diversity equity inclusion and the vice versa, diversity equity, inclusion, and its impact on culture. It’s everything like we have such misinformation about what our cultures are in law firms, I think, and a focus on diversity equity inclusion helps reveal true cultures, Everything that we have to fix and improve around diversity, equity inclusion, all relates to culture. Systems and processes all relate to culture. Like if we’re used to behaviors, we’re used to a certain person handing out job assignments, or a person has to be the one that determines who gets what assignment. You know, that’s a cultural thing in a law firm and equity and inclusion says there might be a better way to ensure that there’s access to great opportunities across the board. And so that’s a shift in culture. And so I, I feel like culture is everything. Everything that we word in the diversity equity inclusion space is wrapped around the culture of the place. So I find that when I’m training and teaching the new folks in my department, they might be a little bit unnerved because I am nitpicking every word, but it’s like, there’s a way because of our culture, there’s a way we have to say this. Sometimes we have to wrap a fist in a velvet glove and this is how we’re going to do it. We’re gonna use, we’re gonna use mandatory. We’re gonna use encouraged in this instance, or we’re gonna use required, but here we have to use mandatory. Right? So it’s culture is wrapped up in every single thing in every single person.
Virginia Essandoh:
The thing that worries me though, is I used to think that culture was more, I used to think culture was everything. If you’d asked me a year ago, I would say culture is everything, but with the great recession or sorry, the great resignation people will leave a great culture for more money. In a heart beat. So it calls me to rethink how I think about culture. Sadly, it has caused me to rethink how I think about culture, because people will say, this is the best culture. Like, I love this. I love everything about X, Y, and Z. This is how I felt here. I felt like could succeed. And then it just boggles my mind. And it shouldn’t, I guess, that people will go to the next place with a terrible culture for more money, for a lot more money.
Marci Taylor:
That’s the key though. I think in the past it was a little more money, but you know, talking to people who have made moves laterally since the pandemic, when you’re offered twice as much, I mean money, isn’t everything. But when you’re offered twice or, you know, even more of your salary and you’re in your thirties and you have a family and you’re the primary breadwinner, it’s hard to pass up.
Virginia Essandoh:
And that’s why I say I shouldn’t be surprised. Because it does make sense to me. It does make sense to me. Yeah. Cause you’re right. It’s not a little bit more, they won’t jump for a little bit more, but they’ll jump for a lot more. And that’s the state of the profession right now is there are firms that offer and can offer, us included, like can offer a lot more. And that has impacted how important culture is to people.
Marci Taylor:
Yeah. A little bit, yeah. A little bit. I’d like to talk with you about equity, because I think you have a unique perspective on that. And it’s something that a lot of people don’t really understand what the E in DEI means. So, and again, I’m asking you all these big questions and asking you to distill them down to a, you know, an answer on a podcast, but help us out here.
Virginia Essandoh:
So we tackled this question at Ballard. Do we want to add the E? And I think a lot of organizations and companies in law firms just added the E because it was trendy and it was what everyone else was doing. And people thought they had to, we did not, we did not. And so we wanted to understand it and be able to live by it at Ballard. And so we took a year to explore what equity, to define equity for ourselves, to explore what it would mean for us and to wear it and feel it, and then decide if this is something we wanted to commit to. And so I’m really proud about that. Quite frankly, I’m proud that we didn’t get the pressure to just add it internally. People understood when we said we’re gonna, we’re gonna explore it.
Virginia Essandoh:
And so, you know, one of the first things we did was educate our leaders and our diversity equity inclusion council about the difference between equity and equality. And we showed that what we needed was equity. Equality is easier for people, for some reason than equity. Equality is something that people are used to that word. They think they know what that means. It is something that partners of a certain generation, they’re comfortable wearing that the equality piece because they grew up, you know, in a time when everyone was searching for equality. Equity is harder. And so when we talked about how equality was making sure everyone had equal access and equal opportunity, which feels right, it sounds right. And equity was different. It was making sure people had what they needed individually to be successful. That was harder for people.
Virginia Essandoh:
And so we wanted to say that not everyone needs the same resources or the same resources would be helpful to everyone in the same way. And so they had to get used to the notion that groups of people or individual people needed different things and one size fits all approach would not work. And we had this amazing graphic that we used to demonstrate it. It was two people trying to reach an apple on the tree. And in one image, the tree happened to be, one tree was leaning to a certain side and the person was just on the ground. And because the tree was leaning, the apple was right there. All they to do was pick it up and pluck it. The other person on other side couldn’t get the apple because it was leaning to the other side.
Virginia Essandoh:
Then we saw a graphic where the other person received a ladder so that they, but they to climb the ladder to reach over, to get the apple, right. That’s still not equity, but somebody might view that’s equality. Cause now the person has the apple, but they had to just do more to get it. They can, they can get it. They just have get it ladder and climb way over to the other side. They can get it, they can get it. And the third image was the structure of the tree. Let’s put in place the ability to shift the tree trunk and shift the tree so that it is straight And there are apples here and there are apples here and both people who are standing on the ground in the same space have the opportunity. And so I love that visual.
Virginia Essandoh:
It’s different from the visual that you usually see for equity and equality, the quality about people on the steps, stool looking over the fence. I don’t know if you’ve seen that, that image before, but this, this is different because it just shows that you sometimes have to change the structure of things, and the way things are done for there to be equity, you don’t have to make people change and do more. You have to change the structure and shift the atmosphere for things to be more equitable. And so our journey was demonstrating that over and over again. And it was looking for every opportunity to demonstrate an equity mindset. I was looking for every opportunity to say, we are not shifting a person, we’re gonna shift the system and the structure. And that’s hard that’s the hard thing. And so what does that look like?
Virginia Essandoh:
It looks like when you have a conversation about who’s gonna be promoted to partner you talk about people at the same, you talk about your, you have a group of people, let’s say you have five people that you wanna discuss. Who’s gonna be elevated to partner and you start the meeting at nine. And by the time you get to the last person, it’s five o’clock, that last person either has an advantage or disadvantage at five o’clock. Either people are hungry and they, you know, move fast and say yes, or they move fast and say no. And so we said, equity, a mindset of equity looks like, take the first hour of every day for five days, talk about five people so that you have a, you come in with fresh eyes and a fresh perspective and the same perspective from every person.
Virginia Essandoh:
So if you know, your management committee says, we’re not doing that, too much time. We can knock it out in five hours. Then the question is, are maybe you’re not ready, right. To think differently, because this is what an equity mindset looks like. You do things a little bit differently, and they’re gonna take more time. It looks like when you talk about your demographics, you aren’t just talking about broad numbers. There was a time, you know, we’ve evolved past that at Ballard. We used to just talk about diverse lawyers. Here’s our percentage of diverse lawyers. We now talk about, here are our numbers and our percentage of black lawyers here are our numbers and our percentages of Asian – like that’s an equity mindset looking at data in a different way. When we talk about our summer class coming in, you know, there was a time when it was just, our class is 50% female, 50% male, like yay.
Virginia Essandoh:
But now that conversation, those demographics are much more nuanced. That’s an equity mindset. And so we sat with that. We wore it for a year and then asked the question, do you want to add equity? Fortunately, the answer was, yes, I was prepared for, I was prepared to go either way, but the answer was yes, after deliberation and consideration and wearing it. And so it has, you know, the hard part, the hardest part is the conversation around pay equity and compensation, that people don’t like to look behind that curtain. And so that was part of what we had to present too. This looks like we have to talk about equity and who gets business development opportunities. How does work come into this firm and who gets it? How do we pay people? And I say that that one is difficult because it’s nuanced. Equity is not just, cause if you’re a lockstep system, for instance, for associates, it might seem like there’s no issue, but we know total compensation includes bonus, right. And billable hour bonus and merit bonus and business development bonus, and whatever other ways in which you can get a bonus. That means you have to look at the structures behind each of those individual things. Yeah. And so I say all that to say that our journey toward equity was deliberate and I’m glad we ended where we ended.
Marci Taylor:
Yeah, and sounds like very thoughtful and very detailed. And, you know, it takes a certain amount of bravery to look behind the curtain for all those systems. So kudos to your firm for taking the look and doing something about it. So to finish up, the real purpose of this podcast is hopefully to highlight and inspire the next generation of law firm leaders. And we’ve been talking about generational diversity, you and I for a very long time. But I feel like leadership is shifting to the next generation. What are your views on what law firm leadership looks like going forward? And, and based on your experience as chief diversity officer, what words of wisdom might you have for the next generation of law firm leaders?
Virginia Essandoh:
Wow. The most important thing for me is that the next generation, are self-aware people, that’s a trait that people can work on and they can build their level of self-awareness, recognizing what they know and what they don’t know. And being curious and wanting other perspectives to help fill the gaps that they know they have. To me, that’s what it all boils down to. I think that the self, along with the self-awareness piece, it comes with recognizing what your own obstacles are in life, your own blind spots and working to fill those or fix those or mitigate those. I mean, there’s so much there for the next generation that’s already in them.
Marci Taylor:
Do you feel like they have it a little bit more? Is it just me?
Virginia Essandoh:
I do feel like they have it a little bit more. I feel like they’re paying attention to more, they’re empathetic with and to more. I think that it’s in them and it’s gonna make for great leaders someday. It’s already starting to happen. They’re gonna be more savvy financially as well. I think because they’re gonna use those skill sets that they have around different perspectives and thinking outside of the box. And so, yeah, I mean, I think that’s a huge question. I’d love to come back and talk again about culture and talk about the next generation of leaders and those skill sets that they need. Because I think that’s, you know, that’s really a big, that’s what the big next opportunity is for this next generation in leadership.
Marci Taylor:
Well, and your comment on self-awareness is right in line with Dan Goldman’s emotional intelligence work, right? That’s the first thing about emotional intelligence. You have to be self-aware and we’ve all worked for bosses who thought that they were self-aware, but they were not. I think at some point in our lives, if you’ve been around long enough you see how important that is, cause if you don’t know your own shortcomings, then you’re not gonna be able to correct them. And it occurred to me when you were speaking earlier, what you were talking about about all of your DEI efforts was kind of like an organizational self-awareness.
Virginia Essandoh:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Marci Taylor:
Cause taking a look at yourself is really hard. Taking a look at yourself as an organization is super hard. I feel like it’s, self-awareness kind of at both levels, the individual level and the organizational level, just hearing you that’s what occurred to me.
Virginia Essandoh:
Yeah. Both levels. You can’t do yourself, right? Like, right. Even as an organization, you can’t take an unbiased look at yourself. Right. And see all the things that you need to see as a person. You can’t like that’s self-awareness too, like you have to recognize and you can’t see everything that other people could possibly see and help you grow and be better with. As a leader, I have realized that self-awareness means you have to be a hundred percent vulnerable and tell people where you’re not strong and tell them, you know, ask them to hold you accountable in your areas where you’re not as strong as a leader and let them know you’re trying to get better, but giving them the space to help you also grow and get better and give them the psychological safety to say, yeah, that’s you’re right. You’re not great at that Virginia, and I’m going to help you. I’m gonna help you realize those areas where you can improve mm-hmm
Marci Taylor:
Yeah. And so I feel like law firm environments, it’s just a little bit harder to do that. Vulnerability is hard period, but I think in law firm environments where you’re supposed to be right all the time and you’re supposed to be strong all the time. I think it’s even more challenging to do it in those environments, but I think we can get there.
Virginia Essandoh:
Yeah. And that’s what that next generation is gonna provide. I think that they’ll have an easier or better time at showing vulnerability.
Marci Taylor:
My last question is, do you have any books for people who like to read about this stuff? Any good books that you’ve read lately that you’d like to?
Virginia Essandoh:
Yes. And there’s one that I usually have right here next to me, and it’s probably downstairs on the sofa. It’s called the Waymakers.
Marci Taylor:
Okay. Who is the author?
Virginia Essandoh:
Tara Jaye Frank.
Marci Taylor:
Thank you. We’ll put that in the show notes so people can check it out.
Virginia Essandoh:
They have to.
Marci Taylor:
What did you like about it?
Virginia Essandoh:
I’m reading it and rereading it and studying it because it’s about workplace equity and how leaders have to be way makers for others, gatekeeper, whoever, if you’re a gatekeeper in an organization, you need to also be a Waymaker and be looking for opportunities to open doors for people. And it talks about how you do that very practically, it’s so good. It’s so good. And so I’m studying it. I am using it for leadership development programs. It’s amazing.
Marci Taylor:
Ooh, I can’t wait. Virginia, thank you for taking the time. I know you’re super busy. I really appreciate you spending time with me today. A lot of great information for our listeners.
Virginia Essandoh:
Thank you Marci, for having me. It’s been a pleasure and thank you for, for doing this podcast and for what you’re trying to do at Withum.
Marci Taylor:
Great. Talk to you again soon.
Closing:
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