Transcript:
This podcast was transcribed through a third-party application. Please disregard any misrepresentations.
Brad Caruso:
Welcome to Civic Warriors, brought to you by Withum. On this podcast, we bring the conversation to you, sharing, engaging stories that motivate and build consensus in the nonprofit community. This podcast is about the innovators, the leaders on the frontline of adversity, guiding lights in the nonprofit industry affecting change. And through their stories, we can all join forces to become civic warriors. Hey, warriors. Welcome to today’s episode of Civic Warriors. Brought to you by, Withum. I’m your host, Brad Caruso, leader of Withum’s not-for-profit practice. So today we have two very special guests, Dr. Cindi Love and Bill Bradshaw. Cindi Love is the executive director of Out for Undergrad, whose mission is to help high achieving LGBTQ+ undergraduates reach their full potential. Each year, they invite a diverse class of high achieving LGBTQ+ students to their unique conferences where the students are inspired to pursue ambitious careers.
Brad Caruso:
Bill Bradshaw is a leader in, in our firm as the Director of Inclusion and Diversity. Bill leads the firm’s inclusion and diversity initiatives and oversees its strategy and objectives, including attracting and advancing diverse leaders, forcing an inclusive, accessible and authentic workplace, and collaborating with leadership to provide broad perspectives and innovative client solutions. Bill also does a lot of other things with our community programs, uh, and many of our initiatives here at Withum and has been, uh, a great resource to us and, and we’re so happy that he was able to join our firm to help us advance into the future. So, Cindy and Bill, welcome to the show.
Cindi Love:
Thank you. Love being here.
Bill Bradshaw:
Awesome Brad. Thanks for having us today. This is great.
Brad Caruso:
Looking forward to it. Uh, so I’ll start with, uh, you Cindi. Um, and just wanna start with just a general question so the audience can get a little better understanding of, uh, the organization Out for Undergrad. So what, what led you to Out for Undergrad to help their mission?
Cindi Love:
Well, I came in 2018, um, and specifically I wanted to help, uh, increase or improve social capital for really super talented, yet the most underrepresented LGBTQ2+ young people in the world who wanna work at the leading corporations in the world, or the leading NGOs and organizations. Um, the context is that since less than 1% of all members of all boards in the Fortune 500, if we just take that as example, are actually LGBTQ2+, in order for us to get, uh, young people through the pipeline and, uh, into those seats where they can actually affect change as the most powerful global organizations in the world, which is what corporations are, now, we have to supercharge the pipeline. And when I came in 2018, really, and if I think back to 1975 when I came into corporate America, while things have certainly gotten better, we still have huge issues, or we wouldn’t have less than 1% in those board seats. So I really wanna overhaul that pipeline and ensure that these incredibly bright, super talented young people get into corporate America advance or retained and become the leaders, uh, of our next generation.
Brad Caruso:
Love it. And, and when you look at the mission, um, of Out for Undergrad and, and what does it, what does it mean, um, in your mission when you say to help the LGBTQ2+, uh, undergrads reach their full potential, um, what does that mean to you?
Cindi Love:
Well, there are so many barriers. If you only held one identity, if you just were a lesbian, okay, let’s be me, white, southern, lesbian. Um, there are lots of barriers, uh, in any one of those within corporate America still, uh, even though things have dramatically improved. But imagine if you are black, transgender, non-binary, non-gender conforming, uh, first generation and coming out of a non-target school and you’re trying to get a job at Withum. Now, you may be the notable exception, which is fabulous, but most places, <laugh>, any one of those could automatically get you on a wait list or no interview or kick to the back in spite of best efforts. And so our mission is to really deconstruct those barriers, um, within corporations by working with sponsors and recruiters as mentors to our students, getting them to really understand and become sponsors for them, them themselves within corporations.
Cindi Love:
But it’s also to work inside the students themselves because they’ve so often created these sort of artificial social constructs, barriers for themselves out of their experiences in their churches, their schools, their families, where maybe they haven’t been accepted. So we’re like taking that stuff apart. And I tell them my favorite quote in the world is, every wall is a door. And I say, look, until you can get to the point where you see a wall and instead you see a door, then that’s you inside, um, creating that for yourself. So we work on stripping that out and then also trying to strip it out externally within, uh, corporations. That’s really what our help means.
Bill Bradshaw:
Yeah. And Cindi, I had add something, um, just right to your, to your point that you made before that, um, as someone who is in my mid-career, we’ll say, um, and has been out for most of my career, uh, in, in this work, doing this work, necessary work, I should say, one of the interesting things that I recall as a young professional was sitting in a, in a conference and, and hearing at that time, the number two and number three out CEOs talking about their journey. It was Jim Federline and it was Beth Ford, right. Land’O Chemical. And I sat in that room and I said to myself, there’s gotta be more. Right? There has to be more. There are, when, when they go, what’s next? Right? So I feel like the, the mission and the cause of the work that we do, that you allow us to partake and do with O4U is so imperative because I imagine, I can think back to where I was sitting in that seat listening to those two individuals and they were the second and third out out leaders of 500 and, and they’re great advocates and they’re great, you know, champions and you know, ambassadors in this work.
Bill Bradshaw:
And I think to myself, what’s next? Right? Where are those people are sitting amongst us, right? They’re, they’re sitting there, they need to understand that there is a voice at the table. There is an opportunity from do that. And I, and my work O4U for many years has really, you know, pivoted that pivoted my approach to say, where are number 227 and 228, right? To, to really look and, and look a little bit deeper.
Cindi Love:
Yeah. I just think that, you know, when we look at the statistics overall, even today with everything we’ve done, you know, you could get very discouraged, <laugh>, you say, okay, of the Fortune 500, we still don’t have more than 10%. Oh wait, we don’t have more than 5% of the highest level leaders in those organizations representing LGBTQ2+. But our perspective is, okay, and let’s look at all the other most underrepresented populations, where are they? And then how do we get corporations instead of thinking, oh, I’m gonna hire more gay people. Oh, I’m gonna hire more black people. How do we get corporations to, to do that kind of rigorous self-assessment, uh, that says what is happening inside our organizations that we can’t get people to the point of interviewing, to the point of accepting jobs and then retaining them who do not hold majority identities.
Cindi Love:
And I just always say, you will do your best work if you look at the person who is least represented and in our work, knowing what’s going on in our country right now. You could also add to that least represented and probably most discriminated against, so let’s say black trans first generation non-target school, which is sort of how we frame that now. And if we can get organizations to look there, it improves everything because it lifts all boats. Um, it’s challenging, but every time I see an individual who’s black and trans now advancing within a corporation above a mid-tier level, I think, okay, that’s progress. Um, that’s what we’re trying that’s just what we’re trying to do. Um, I think a big part of our work is just building social capital. Um, we all talk about our recruiting networks and we have now these marvelous recruiting platforms and we have all this stuff that we use to hire people.
Cindi Love:
But the truth is, the majority of jobs that take place at the most senior level we know is because someone knows somebody who knows somebody. And so how do you get yourself vested in that social capital network early enough in your career that you can become Beth Ford, you know, you can become one of those individuals. That’s what we’re, we are really trying to help people build. And one of the most critical elements of that is for people to sort of start seeing the world upside down and inside out, seeing being LGBTQ2+ as a strength, almost like a superpower, uh, Todd Sears calls it your outvantage, you know, whatever it is, to the fact that we spend our whole lives having to observe the world differently than the majority. What have we learned from that? How do we deploy that in our work with other people, relationships, networking, communication to build social capital.
Bill Bradshaw:
Yep. And the navigation, right? It, it’s, you know, the skillsets, you learn to navigate the world as an underrepresented individual, right? As an, as a non-majority person in corporate America, uh, in America, period, right? I mean, especially corporate America is, is trying, right? So the agility, the flexibility, the, you know, the resiliency, the tenacity, you know, all these qualities that people have, we look for all the time at Withum all the time to say, these are, these are characteristics of people we want, right? And they’re sitting in front of us. So I I, I just think it’s great that, that we have the opportunity to, you know, put, put one with the other and, and connect the, connect the dots with your organization.
Cindi Love:
I think for us, you know, people think of us of course as our primary work being with students. And it is, and we have a whole nother body of work that is with individuals like yourself who are sponsors, recruiter funders, sponsors, funders, recruiters, mentors of our students. A lot of people don’t know that the O4U conferences, um, which we have three now. We have business, we have our O4U digital, which is the merger of our tech and marketing, and then we have our engineering conference, 2024, we’ll have life sciences. Um, each corporation that sponsors us sends mentors to O4U. And the mentors are LGBTQ2+ themselves. They also, more and more we ask the corporations to have them represent additional identities that are not well represented within their corporations. Those are hard. You, you ask, you ask a corporation today, could you please send me a black individual who is non-binary as a mentor so that the non-binary black students can actually see someone exist in that role, in that corporation and has that opportunity to influence. But I think a lot of our work also is with those mentors. Um, and that kind of gets overlooked. Cause it’s part of our package. It’s what, it’s what everybody does, but it’s such a strength because then they go back to their corporations just like you have. And not only been an advocate for us, which we deeply appreciate, but you go back and advocate for the things that you see happening with young people as a result of that experience. That’s huge.
Bill Bradshaw:
Yeah, absolutely. Um, it was interesting cuz I was sharing with a colleague and, uh, actually just yesterday, um, who works for an international brand, um, super supportive of the LGBTQ2+ space, um, actually did, uh, you know, works for an organization that creates, um, the Oreos that we did for Pride Month a couple years ago. Uh, and now, now you would think in my mind as a, as a DNI practitioner and someone who’s been championing in this work for a long time, I said, um, are you gonna be at O4U? Um, you know, are, is your firm gonna be O4U? And they were like, wait a minute, what’s that? You know? So there’s still that piece of, for me that’s where I, that’s where I get fueled, right? I get fueled by the fact that it’s not just we are doing it for a self-serving purpose.
Bill Bradshaw:
It’s how can we help others, right? And and I think going back to what this, these conversations we have and, and Brad hosts multiple of them for us through different channels as always, how are we good civic individuals? How are we good? And how can we give back to others who might not know about this? So I, I think it’s just, it’s just great, you know, a a great conversation and so timely, you know, especially cuz we’re coming up to conference. So I know there’s probably some questions around that that we wanna chat to about.
Cindi Love:
Yeah. I I think it’s, I didn’t even know how to describe it exactly, but I think of it as this sort of constantly rotating wheel of influence who, who’s impacting whom, who is giving voice and agency to what the concerns are, who’s paying attention? How do you keep growing that? Um, because the truth is, you know, whether it’s Withum or O4U or any of the other organizations that we work with, we’re all in this work of really trying to reframe social structures. We’re all trying to catalyze new behaviors both inside and out. We’re, we’re really about this big work. And sometimes the students laugh at me, they’ll be like, what in the heck is that? What did you just say? Because it’s too many words for nowadays. But what we’re really trying to do, I think, is we’re trying to take the human rights that were delineated for the 20th and 21st century as abstractions, and we’re trying to turn those into realities.
Cindi Love:
And when we move that, then I think we’ve fundamentally changed people’s lives for the better. And it’s very hard work here. We are all trying to be our very best, you know, HRC has what, over 800 corporations now that have, you know, corporate equality index at the same time that Florida is, um, stripping away the rights fundamental rights of individuals. So we are working in a creative tension that is not easy to navigate, and you have to really care to navigate, um, and you have to be active to navigate. It’s easier nowadays to do nothing and let it go by. But, but that’s what we’re about.
Brad Caruso:
Yeah. And if you wanna move the yeah, move the needle on, on the less than 1% representation, it, it, it takes everybody having the mindset of we’re all moving in this direction. It’s not just Bill preaching to our firm, it’s people in my role then preaching to them. And when I go interview, you have to incorporate how are we inclusive? How, why is it that you would want to work here? And then listen, we want you here. It, it’s, it’s, you’d be very, you’d be very proactive about it. It’s not just, we have all these policies. Great. Like, it always frustrates me when people put out policies to have policies. Like it’s the exact opposite reason why you, why you need a policy other than maybe you’re trying to cover yourself on legal. But it’s, it takes everybody. And then down, as you said, um, you know, you don’t go from, you don’t go from school to CEO overnight.
Brad Caruso:
I mean, maybe one person out of a billion does that, but in order to get there, there, there’s very various logical steps. The first one is start your profession. The second one is get involved on a board. The third one is move up in your opportunity and responsibility. And then over time, eventually you get to that level. But it’s, it’s a, that’s a long cycle. It’s <laugh>, it’s, it’s not, doesn’t happen overnight. So all the work you’re doing, um, you know, the more people that you’re able to connect with, the more likely you’re gonna have a success down the road. But as you said, I mean, it, it sounds like a very uphill, uphill battle. A lot is every time you take a step forward, you know, you get diverse thought from others that say, well, I don’t, I don’t agree with that. And then they fight it and, you know, okay, now, now it sets us back a little bit.
Brad Caruso:
But, um, you know, for what you do, it’s great because it, it’s that, that introductory level, it’s connecting with that at, at that ground level to, uh, and then, and then meet with all your sponsorship, right? The big part of the not-for-profit world is connecting, is connecting people. I mean, from my experience,<exactly>. It’s, it’s not just the intake process, it’s also what kind of ecosystem have you created that then gives these individuals regardless of, of, of, um, their background, the opportunities to succeed. And so without your work with, um, individuals like Bill and our firm and, and other firms and other organizations out there, we can teach people all they want, but if then those organizations aren’t gonna then adopt the same philosophies in the same mindset, it, it doesn’t always work, or it doesn’t, doesn’t move the way you want it to. So I, I think it’s, it’s very important, I think how you have structured this and how you, uh, have created a lot of collaborations on a variety of levels, um, that, that help it to succeed, or from, at least from my perspective, what I see, it helps it succeed.
Cindi Love:
Yeah. I think it’s like a ripple effect. You know, you, um, and, and i I talk a lot about, people will say, well, aren’t, isn’t skills development more important? Or isn’t this more, and I’m like, actually in my view, after many, many years of being at this, helping students develop the social capital that they need is the thing that is the game changer. And the cool thing about that is any of us can help someone else develop social capital, <laugh>, all we have to show up and stand beside them, eat with them at the table, at the cafeteria, take ’em for a cup of coffee. I mean, it’s, it’s the stuff that any human being can do. You don’t have to have any special skills or any special backing from anyone to give the gift of social capital to another human being. And, and I think one of our challenges as a member of the LGBTQ2+ community is it’s been kind of hard in the last 40 years to trust people, even even a vowed allies sometimes, that that is what they really want to do.
Cindi Love:
I tell students all the time, that’s an internal thing for you, right? That’s, that’s a defense you’ve built up about people who possibly have done things that have felt hurtful. Um, but if you carry that with you instead of that whole perspective, you know about that, uh, every wall being a door, then the outcomes for you will be equal to what baggage you’re carrying. So somehow you have to set that down. And, and I’m not saying you don’t care for your mental health. You don’t do all the things you need to do. I’m saying that you still have to shift internally if you’re holding a belief that people are not there to help you. Because my experience worldwide, I worked in 85 countries typically with a lot of people who we didn’t even speak the same language. And I was a woman and a lot of countries where being a woman was like third or fourth down the line of things to be.
Cindi Love:
And I discovered in all of those experiences, even after I came out in 1995, that most people actually do want to be in relationship with you and help you. And so if you’re open to that, then you have the opportunity of that coming to you. Whereas if you’re closed, you don’t. And, um, I think, I think that’s something we have to spend more time supporting our students in understanding about themselves. The, the, you know, this is supposed to be Gen Z is supposed to be the loneliest generation in our history according to the most recent research. So what do we do to change that so they feel less lonely? We, at O4U we say diversity is achievable, but belonging is believable. So, you know, you can go check all the boxes and get all the right people and all the right jobs, and your metrics will look fantastic. And then you’ll have a 66 question survey about how are we doing on DEI? And I always say the most important question you can ask a human being inside a corporation or inside a family, any social system, is do you feel like you belong? And if you don’t want, if you don’t, why not?
Bill Bradshaw:
And I’ll echo that and really fast because I’ve said this and I’m, I’m sure you know, Caroline Wonga for years, and I, I love Caroline’s one of my, one of my go-tos when I, when I think that I’m going down the wrong path and why am I doing this work? It’s too hard and it’s too, it’s too tough. But she said at one point, you know, you need to be able to be who you are, where you are. Um, and if you can’t be who you are where you are, you don’t change the who you change the where, right? And sometimes that comes down to your, your family circle, right? Um, one of the things that I lead, lead at Withum is I always say, we lead with inclusion and we lead with inclusion. Because I go back to that angel and Adam, you know, diversity’s being invited, inclusion’s being asked to dance.
Bill Bradshaw:
We want all of our folks to come to work at WIthum and dance. Not just dance, but dance to whatever music they wanna dance to. If they wanna dance, sitting down, if they wanna dance, standing up by themselves to salsa music, to rap music, to, you know, to, to do the waltz, whatever they wanna do, when they are doing what makes them happy and they feel like they can do that, they are engaged, they show up better, they produce better for themselves, they produce better for our clients. Um, and everyone wins, you know? So it really, it really boils down to human decency and, and, and humility and going back to that empathetic leadership and, and really talking about, um, you know, how we do create those senses of those places of belonging. Um, and what, what I’ll say about, you know, the conferences that I want you to dive a little bit into that too is, you know, it’s a, a reaffirming place to be when you are surrounded by people that are like you.
Bill Bradshaw:
And, and we see it in multiple facets in multiple conferences that us here at Withum a partake in Nava Alpha Disability Inn, um, you know, ascend all of the conferences where we convene our folks that are, you know, ally underrepresented in our profession, it is a reconnection for those folks. It is a, a reason to say, I should do this work. I can do this work. I see people doing this work, look at how they have advanced, and it helps us with retention, right? Yes. It helps us reengage our folks. So from your cycle of learning, it brings them into us from a student perspective, we bring those people back and say, exactly, have you gone through it? Bring ’em back and show ’em what you’re doing and showing you how great it is. Like, talk about that cycle, right? I think it’s so important.
Cindi Love:
Oh, absolutely. You know, one kind of shocking thing for us is how many O4U students go to work for corporations and then come back to O4U as recruiters and mentors. And we didn’t used to even look at that before, but now that we track those things, I’ve asked. So I said, well, why did you make that decision? And I said, oh my God. O4U was a place where I felt like someone wrapped a warm blanket around me. And I, I could be completely myself, it was completely okay, and I could be completely who I have to be at work. And that’s the piece that I think at least we work really hard to try and achieve, uh, in the lives of students, in the lives of our sponsors and organizers. And we’re not always successful, of course, but we would also like to work ourselves out of a job.
Cindi Love:
You know, I’m like, I would prefer if the world were not a place where people had to come to O F U so they could get a warm hug. Um, I’d like for there to be a day when what we’re doing is completely unnecessary, and we’re making huge progress on the numbers. You know, O4U is now more than 50% non-white, not, not including students of Asian descent. So that’s a huge shift in our demographic since, uh, 2018, and we’re over 17% now. Uh, TGNC non-binary, we were a white, gay, cisgender male organization up until that time, just, just like the corporations we served. And so I’m, I’m just thinking for all of the people who are coming now, as we achieve greater and greater representational diversity, you know, our real challenge is gonna be, okay, we got everybody there, but will they actually stick the landing with us? Is it a place where anyone cares to continue? Is it a place where they feel not just comfortable, but they feel hugely productive, um, where they feel like they do have a path forward, um, where their manager is actually supporting them in that path forward? Those are the, I think those are the big challenges of this next decade.
Brad Caruso:
Yeah. And with the way that connection is these days, as you said, it’s like the loneliest generation, like, it, it’s so incumbent for that outreach. It’s so incumbent to take people under your wing and show them how to, how to do things the right way or how to, how to be good people in the world. And, um, yeah. It’s, it’s so powerful what you’re saying there and, and can just resonatse so much with just that, that basic, that basic aspect of just asking someone to go to lunch, or as Bill said, asking someone to dance like it, it’s, it’s so important to, to, to move the needle forward and, and to have such an impact. And, you know, people, people receive that, people, you know, I see it all the time that if you just tell people to work all the time and you hide in your office, do people really wanna work? No. But if you, Hey, let’s go to lunch today. Let’s forget about the work. Let’s tell me about your life. What’s going on today, <laugh>, what’s happening? I’m just asking that question. How are you doing today? I mean, some of that’s getting lost too, of starting phone calls. We just jump right into the next Zoom meeting. It’s, how are you doing today? Anything going on in life, you know, and people wanna share what they wanna share. Maybe they don’t. But, um, it’s, it’s so powerful what you’re saying.
Cindi Love:
I love that dance analogy. I mean, think about, I don’t know if this happened to the, to the two of you, but so you’re, you’re at your high school prom, whatever, in whatever name it would have today to be appropriate. But you’re there and there’s a person against the wall, and everyone in the room knows that person is not gonna get asked to dance. Everyone in the room knows they came without a date to the prom and somebody asked them to dance. It’s, it’s the most incredible, you can feel the energy of that kind of breakthrough in that room, and we can remember it, right? That’s what we’re actually trying to achieve in corporate America right now, is that we have enough people, we have enough critical mass of people who, when they see there’s an individual standing against that wall, they’re the first ones who are gonna ask ’em to dance because then others will follow. You know, we are, we are truly followers as human beings, but we wanna follow a respected authority or influencer in our life. So who are those people and how do they do it? That’s why all the diversity literature says this has to come from the top. You know, if you don’t have support from the top in our corporations, we won’t get there. They don’t have to be the one to ask ’em to dance, but they do have to make sure the dance is held and the people are there <laugh>.
Bill Bradshaw:
And historically, I’ll say Withum, we have some great leaders that love to dance. If you’ve ever seen any of our falter videos, please make sure to watch some of them, especially <laugh> dancers from our CEO on down, um, dancing every year in a culture better. You might have seen me this year, and if you did, I’ll sign autographs at some point when I see you all.
Cindi Love:
I love that. I love that. That should probably become a video clip to support this podcast. <laugh>.
Brad Caruso:
It could be a rider to the release there, just, yeah,
Cindi Love:
There you go. There you go.
Brad Caruso:
Yeah, I mean, so on this topic, I mean, we we’re talking about a couple concepts here. Um, I’ll go to you first, Cindy, and then, uh, you Bill. But maybe if you could share a success story of, of, uh, you know, a student you’ve helped or a student you’ve mentored, uh, and what that, what that looks like in practice. I think that would be great. Just, I love hearing success stories and I think our audience would love to hear a success story just as they kind of embark on their journey.
Cindi Love:
Sure. I’ll do one that’s atypical and one that’s typical. So atypical, sometimes we get students who apply to, O4U who don’t meet our criteria. Um, so they’re, they’re actually not in college and students don’t always understand they have to be in college and they’re typically gonna be a junior or senior. And, um, so I, I got this, uh, contact from a student and they were not in community college. They were actually trying to figure out how to pursue a GED at 15 years old. Um, and the, we don’t really have an avenue. So I was trying to figure out, okay, how do I, how do I help this student? And so I said, well, what’s your goal? And the student said, I wanna get my GED so I can get a job because I’ve been kicked out of my house cuz I came out as trans.
Cindi Love:
And so this person was living without a fixed abode in Dallas, Texas. And I said, well, um, first let’s work on your goal. Um, it is one thing to get your GED so then you can get a job. The problem of course being 15, because you have to have a work permit signed off by a parent at that age. And I said, so why limit what you’re thinking about to getting a job? I know that’s survival. You gotta have a house, you gotta have food, you gotta have transportation. But did you ever think of yourself as someone who would go to college? They’re like, oh yeah, but that’s not for me. Now that I’ve come out. And, you know, they had kind of a standard narrative if you think about it, about the bad things that happened to folks in that coming out situation.
Cindi Love:
And I said, so would you consider taking basically an inventory of tests that would talk about, uh, look to what your skills are, your abilities, where you might land? Sure. So we got that done, uh, got one of our partners got that arranged for them. They took those and this individual had extraordinary aptitude in multiple areas, communication skills were off the chart, all these different things. So I went back and I said, what if instead of get a, a job and, uh, and your GED, what if you got your GED got a job and went to community college, would you consider that? Well sure, but how would I pay for it? All right? We work through the issues of placement and scholarship, sponsorship, etc. So I’ll fast forward to the end of this. This student has just been hired as a director at one of the top 20 campuses in the country to lead DEI efforts.
Cindi Love:
And in five years completed an associates degree, a bachelor’s degree in the, the one year extension. So they now have a master’s degree as well. In five years they, they have a job, they got a GED and now they’re leading one of the few trans-identified individuals in the country leading in that kind of role. That’s an atypical, that’s not even the work of O4U. But we get students who come through our pipeline who don’t quite fit us and then we try and figure out where they go. Typicals typical would be a first generation student who is not white, typically black, native, Latinx, um, identifies probably non-binary at this point in time cuz it’s changing quickly how students are identifying themselves or queer. And that individual comes to us in their senior year and they are wanting to get a job at one of the top 100 business finance investment banking firms in the country.
Cindi Love:
And they go through our conference and they do our authenticity curriculum and what matters most in life and work and values. And, um, they get an interview as a result of the conference, they get their first internship or job and that individual gets hired. And we now know, based on our statistics over our 20 years of operation, they soon, usually about three years, they get their second job through the O4U network because now they have a community of people, at least a thousand in the student cohort of that year, plus 8,000 alums. Now they have a community that when they get ready to shift to somewhere else, they can tap into the community and say, Hey, I went to O4U in these two years I’ve done this and this and this and I don’t know any other word. In the old days we would’ve called it the good housekeeping seal of approval. But it’s like somebody says, oh, if you did those things, then we know you have, what were your terms earlier? The resiliency, the persistence, the talent, the, you have those things to be able to be successful and they get a recommendation that’s social capital. So those are my two examples that I can give the atypical and typical, I, you’ve probably got better ideas than I do as a recruiter sponsor of, O4U what that looks like.
Bill Bradshaw:
Yeah I, I’ll think of one. Um, and again, I’ve been involved with, with Cindi and her organization for quite some time through different firms. Um, and one of the firms I was at, not Withum, uh, we had an individual who we had met and was on, you know, the gender expansion journey at that, that’s what we call it now. That’s not what it was called then. Um, was not, we needed sponsorship, um, was here in university, was had sponsorship at that time. Very talented individual. Um, and but in professional services sometimes we, we have hurdles, right? Like bringing someone in as a sponsor to sponsor someone to bring them into the organization or the firm is, is, is is quite a bit of a hurdle. A lot of big, big four, big, big 25. It’s, we just don’t, it, it’s something we typically don’t do.
Bill Bradshaw:
Um, but I said to myself, there’s a tenacity in this person. There’s grit and someone has to give the opportunity, someone has to give the person opportunity. Um, because I knew that this was literally life or death for this person, right? This person was from a country where if they went back there, it was not it. This person would have, have, have been dead. Um, and I get a, I get a little choked up and chilled when I talk about the story because I still have a relationship with this person today. Um, and I will give you the cliff notes cuz we, I know we are, we, we we wanna stay on target in time. But this individual was able to, we were able to bring the individual into the firm, um, who we met through, through a relationship, through someone that O4U.
Bill Bradshaw:
Um, the individual was, we helped to get them sponsored so they were able to stay in the us We helped get their immigration status, um, as their born in a or or gender assigned immigration status in first. We then got legal involved. We were able to help them get their gender reassignment surgery, change their gender as a US citizen. Um, and I guess the fruit of this was when I saw them in a relationship and now sharing and having a family and still being able to thrive. So it, it’s not always about how you get there. It’s, we got it. It it, it’s just the path is not, is not a yellow brick road. It is not something that I, that I say that I would’ve ever known how to navigate. I had multiple players, multiple stakeholders that helped me get there. But what I didn’t do was I didn’t give up on the person’s tenacity cause I saw something in that person.
Bill Bradshaw:
Um, and that person will forever be grateful to the opportunity they got. And when I ask them to speak, they’ll always say yes. Um, and they always talk about opportunity because I think the most important thing that we forget is not everyone’s gonna have the same upbringing, the same exposure, the same experience. But if you give someone an opportunity to show who they are and to be success and to show how they can be successful and overcome obstacles, what, what more, what more shows? Anything more about someone’s character, right? So I, from my end, I would say that, um, you know, kind of stood out for me. That was many moons ago. Um, and you know, and when you see, when I, when I see that person still climbing and rising and extending their family and growing their family and pictures of their kids come across, you know, it’s, it’s just, it’s a, it’s a really satisfying place to be. Um, and to think it started from a conversation about O4U, right? You know, the person was there, they, their resume was shared with me. They hadn’t even attended the conference cuz they didn’t know if they could cuz of sponsorship. I mean, it was literally like this. If I, if I, if you had to say what’s, what’s something you never thought you’d see is what I is, this is something I never thought I’d, um, so that Brad, that would be my, my story. I guess,
Brad Caruso:
Not I guess that’s a phenomenal story that you saved somebody’s life and continue to be involved. I really appreciate you sharing that. That’s, that’s such a powerful story.
Bill Bradshaw:
I’ll also just say, you know, one of the things I wanna add, um, in doing this work as well, and as we continue to progress as firms and as we continue where our partnerships with HRC as me as Cindi had mentioned, you know, they are our benchmark. They give us guidelines on what we should be doing. And that’s just, you know, to me, I always say we should be doing more. Right? Here’s the benchmark, let’s go above it. Like what else can we do? We have, you know, O4U, they do some great stuff. Obviously with Cindi in the work that she’s doing, there’s out leadership, there’s out on equal, there’s multiple different nonprofits, organizations that have different niches I would say that help us in this space. But what I would say is, you know, one of the things that we as a firm, I, I can attest to is, you know, we really make sure that the experience our team members have here is holistic, right?
Bill Bradshaw:
So one of the, one of those things that I consistently strive to look at is it may not be the person that shows up every day to work, but it may be a member of their family that is going through, you know, the transgender experience or the gender expansion experience or coming out as gay or lesbian or bisexual, right? Those are our next generation of leaders. That’s how I look at that. And I also look at, are my benefits inclusive for all right? So when someone comes to me, Bill as a, as as the head of DNI, you know, why is it important that we have x, y, and Z benefits? It’s not just about the people that are in the seats. It is about who’s coming behind them. Who do they support, who do they love? Who, who is their children, right?
Bill Bradshaw:
What does that mean for them? And really ensuring inclusive care is available for everyone because they are our next generation. And when we think about where they’re gonna be, and we hope that we send them on to Cindi and her team to, to come back as, as, as great professionals that the people in their family have done. I think it’s just so important to remember, it’s not always right in front of your face. It, it, it is, it really is. You know, digging a little deeper, having those conversations and the ability to story tell and just be authentic, you know, and, and, and really move that needle.
Brad Caruso:
So powerful conversation here. I’ll, I’ll tell you this is, uh, this is, this is really good. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate that we’ve had a chance to kind of share some of these details, have some ideas, good collaboration on, uh, some topics. And I guess I’ll just wrap up with, um, you know, one, one final question to both of you as, as we’re leading up to your conference. Um, you know, Cindi, what, what advice can you give rising LGBTQ2+ professionals to get them to reach their fullestfullest potential to get the word out? It’s that lost tooth. I have it, it got me there. <laugh>
Cindi Love:
<laugh>. It’s all right. You know, um, I ask students to think of themselves and their intersecting identities in the beginning of every conversation that I have with them, cuz it is such a critical part of their story that is often neglected. Um, even if you go to a corporation in that has great ERGs, there’s usually one for black people and one for trans people. And so I always ask them, so if you’re black and trans, which one are you going to go to? And will you be allowed to go to both? Um, and and that may seem silly, but it it’s the thing they have to navigate, right? So I always say, you’re gonna navigate a lot of stuff and not all of it is going to be easy. And some of it is going to hurt and some of it is gonna be hard to set aside.
Cindi Love:
But I encourage students to look at themselves through the lens of the, and, um, my southern friends who are members of evangelical churches always question my choice here. But the truth is it’s totally, um, aligned with whatever you believe in any of the world religions. But I use it for this reason. There’s this statement in the Dallas. It says, those who know others are intelligent, those who know themselves are truly wise. Those who master others are strong. Those who master themselves have true power. Those who know they have enough are truly wealthy. And so I just say to students, once you figure out you’re gonna accept yourself, all of yourself, every part of you, every identity, those are yours. They belong to you. They don’t belong to anyone else. They are in fact like your superpower. Uh, I think sometimes the more underrepresented identities you hold as a person, the greater that power can be because you have had to see the world most of your life, even as a young child through a different lens than the majority.
Cindi Love:
And it gives you a perspective that a lot of people just don’t have. Um, and so I just say, do the work that you have to do to be you, whatever that is, and then be unapologetically you because that authenticity, when people experience it in your life at whatever part of the passage you’re in, they resonate with it. And authenticity doesn’t mean that I’m gonna bang you over the head with who I am and that you’re, uh, shameful or not okay because you didn’t accept me. Authenticity means I am who I am and you are who you are. And we have a lot to offer each other. And it’s a choice We have to choose if we’re gonna offer those things to each other or not. I was, I told you a little while ago, Todd Sears says, we have that outvantage as remembering that he said one of the reasons he thought he had that superpower is he had to start over every single time he walked into a room.
Cindi Love:
And that’s like the dance analogy. Um, you show up, you are who you are in all of your identities. The rest of the world may not have a clue what to do with you in any of them. And then we talked about the first person who steps out to dance with them. Sometimes as an LGBTQ2+ person, particularly if you’re a person coming from a minoritized uh, race or ethnicity within corporate America, you may just have to get out on the dance floor and dance wild. It’s, it’s the truth so that nobody claims the space that belongs to you on that floor. That’s basically my speech. I don’t have anything else to tell people other than that. I can teach you skills. I can teach you how to interview. I can teach you a great resume. I can teach you how to dress for success, whatever that means anymore on the, in the planet. What I cannot teach you is you.
Bill Bradshaw:
Yeah, well, exactly. You, Cindi. Um, I, I’ve said it many times, you know, I ne I’ve negotiated contracts my whole life. What I don’t negotiate is myself. So who I am is non-negotiable. And I’ve said that multiple times. And people look at me and they’re like, what do you mean? I said, any good corporate business person is always gonna know I’m coming with a coupon and I’m gonna negotiate a contract. Cause I just, they know who I am. If it’s, if it’s one price, I’m not paying that. But what I will not do is ask for that of anybody as a human, because who you are is non-negotiable. My call to action from this is for our leaders to lean in, lean in with empathy, ask those questions like Brad mentioned earlier, how are you? No, really, how are you? And when things happen outside of the walls of what we call work, so what’s happening outside in, you know, the political space, the government space, the just the world in general.
Bill Bradshaw:
Check in on your people. Um, you know, my call is to say, get involved with organizations like Cindi’s. Send, send your folks look for opportunities to bring self-identified individuals into organizations. They’re talented, they’re tenacious. They wanna be here. They’re brave. They’re brave enough to say, I am gender clear and non-binary, expansive, you know, with a disability. They, they’re telling us all those things that we can search and search and do stuff. Id campaigns to the ninth that we would never get. They’re coming with us openly, except that. Um, and, and lean in to those individuals. Lean in, check in, make sure that you’re consistently checking in with them. And at the end of the day, like I said, you know, the, the best success is allowing our folks to show up to dance every day, to whatever music they wanna dance to, how they wanna dance. And if they’re not dancing, encourage them to do that. So we’re gonna drop the mic on that. <laugh>.
Brad Caruso:
Yeah, that, that’s the mic drop <laugh>. Yeah. No, I appreciate that advice and I think, I think it’s, you know, both your perspectives are phenomenal coming from, uh, different places, but also from the same place. And I think that’s, that’s the most important part is that we’re all coming from that same perspective. Um, and so, you know, Cindi, love Bill Bradshaw. He certainly appreciate you joining today on Civic Warriors and sharing your story, sharing information about helping others, um, and, and out there to our audience, uh, warriors out there. Thank you for listening. You know, and from, from my my point of view, just remember, you know, inclusion in our society is everybody’s responsibility. And the way that you effectuate that change is being there for people, providing them guidance and giving everyone encouragement, hope, and the opportunity to, to succeed. And what we heard today and what we know of, and you know, my, my time knowing Bill and Cindy, um, that is exactly what they, they are doing on a day-to-day basis and it’s helping to change the world. So thank you so much Warriors. We appreciate it. Subscribe and meet us right back here for another episode. And have a great day everybody.
