Transcript:
This podcast was transcribed through a third-party application. Please disregard any misrepresentations.
Brad Caruso:
Welcome to Civic Warriors, brought to you by Withum. On this podcast, we bring the conversation to you, sharing, engaging stories that motivate and build consensus in the non-profit community. This podcast is about the innovators, the leaders on the frontline of adversity, guiding lights in the non-profit industry affecting change. And through their stories, we can all join forces to become civic warriors. Hey, warriors. Welcome to today’s episode of Civic Warriors, brought to you by Withum. I’m your host, Brad Caruso, leader of Withum’s, not-for-Profit practice. Our guest today is Carol Sainthilaire, Executive Director and Lissette Diaz, Legal Director of The Waterfront Project, founded in 2013. The Waterfront Project is a legal center that provides free civil, legal representation, assistance, and advocacy to New Jersey residents who are asset limited, income constrained, homeless, or disenfranchised. At present, the Waterfront Project serves hundreds of individuals and families facing housing insecurity through its legal defense and housing counseling programs, providing free legal counseling and connecting them with housing resources and a whole lot more, which we’re gonna find out today. So with that being said, Carol and Lissette, welcome to the show.
Carol Sainthilaire:
Hola. Hello. Thanks for having us. Hi.
Brad Caruso:
Hola. So Carol, provide a little background to the audience of your work in the industry, how you arrived at the Waterfront Project as the Executive Director and some of the work
that you’re doing.
Carol Sainthilaire:
Sure. So I’ve actually been involved in subsidized housing since I was seven years old. I was actually raised in a household that needed a Section 8 voucher after my father had an accident. He was a janitor at a university in New York. He fell and injured himself. And luckily we had community that kind of helped us, you know, with food and, and stuff like that. But we were able to apply for a Section 8 voucher with the North Bergen Housing Authority right here in Hudson County. And that’s how we were able to afford housing and everything else we needed as I was growing up. Um, my mother was a seamstress. My father, you know, would kind of do odd ends here or there, but that’s really how I started it. And to really see 30 years later, um, see me working in this field has really just been really gratifying and why lived experience is important.
Carol Sainthilaire:
I started working in supportive and affordable housing back in 2009 with Common Ground, now known as Breaking Ground. They are one of the largest supportive housing providers in New York. Um, I started there just sort of as an assistant, helping with data and government contracts, which is, you know, where I had some experience after undergrad. And I just really fell in love with it and, you know, really being able to make an impact. And I don’t even think then the two and two went together of like my lived experience and what I was doing for work until I started working. After a few years at Breaking Ground, I came to Hudson County Community Development, and there I was a program director leading all of the homeless initiatives across Hudson County, which is where I’m from. So to be able to work and benefit your neighbors and the community you’re from, you know, a lot.
Carol Sainthilaire:
We have huge increases, huge numbers of immigrant people, mostly speaking Spanish. So again, I could relate a lot of that and being able to see from that position the gaps that we had in the system. I did a lot of work with the intersectionality of the justice system and people experiencing homelessness and really looking at, well, our systems are broken, how can we make it better? And understanding that, you know, oh, people that are experiencing homelessness on the street are, you know, 20 times more likely in Hudson County to end up at the Hudson County Jail. And really being able to look at all of that. So that, you know, really just continued my dedication to this. I had gotten my Master’s in housing policy from the New School, so definitely being able to be working in the field and then part-time at night, I would go take classes at the New School and be able to get my master’s to really continue this, this career.
Carol Sainthilaire:
And I, you know, have then moved on to do things at a national level with the Corporation for Supportive Housing, which is, you know, really this think tank. Um, and technical assistance consulting nonprofit to do projects like the ones I had started here in Hudson, being able to start them in Philadelphia. I even did a quick stint in Chattanooga, Tennessee with Hamilton County. And really it’s just the passion of looking not only at the lives you’re impacting on the ground, but also being able to see the impact to the systems that we do. Um, and then I would say until recently before joining the Waterfront Project in January, I was actually running a supportive housing agency. Um, I was the executive director of Community Enterprises Corporation, the sister agency of Collaborative Support Programs of New Jersey. And basically right before the pandemic, I was a landlord for over 600 folks with behavioral health challenges.
Carol Sainthilaire:
Everyone had a disability, everyone was low income. And then the pandemic hit three months into that job. And, you know, there I can really say the impact, like now reflecting backwards of the importance that the Waterfront Project does, because there were so many people that ended up behind on Rent and because they had a landlord that cared and we were, you know, a supportive housing agency, we evicted two people in three years. And I don’t think any of them were really for non-payment. Um, you know, it was other factors, but because of agencies like the Water Firm Project, we’re able to keep people from entering that homelessness system, which, you know, I always say is on the Brinks of collapse, especially here in in Hudson County. Um, so that was a very long-winded answer. But, you know, really I’ve been a part of the system, you know, since I was a young child and then have also been working in different aspects of it nationally, locally, policy-wise, even providing the housing myself that being at the Waterfront Project really is sort of this culmination. Um, and I’m really excited for the work that I’m doing with Lissette and the rest of our amazing staff.
Brad Caruso:
Yeah, and it, it’s wonderful to see you pay it forward, right? I mean, as you said, you know, you, you started off, um, your family receiving Section 8 vouchers. You’re now, you know, you worked in many different disciplines. You’ve gotten all the experience across multiple verticals and running a nonprofit as, you know, everyone that listens to this show understand are, are people that run nonprofits. It’s not easy. You have to understand finances, you have to understand the programs. You have to connect with your constituents closely. Um, you know, I think you, you’re certainly the perfect role in the, in the role that you’re in, but also, you know, you bring that passion to your job, probably from your lived experiences. And, and I think that, you know, I really appreciate you sharing all that background ’cause it’s definitely relevant. And I know we’re gonna get into some of those items that you talked about, about some of the challenges you’re facing as well as, you know, I mean, we all know that homelessness is, is not a, not a singular, uh, type issue. There, there’s so many things that go around. Housing is one of them. Uh, but you know, being a versatile, not-for-profit is important that you can’t just offer one service or one thing. You have to cover a lot of different gamuts to be able to help those that you’re trying to help. Uh, i.e. those that are homeless or those that are looking for housing. And I think
Carol Sainthilaire:
That that’s what makes the Waterfront Project so special is that we look at each client holistically. Um, you know, Lissette runs our legal department, Kayla Zimmer, who’s not on today, uh, runs our housing department. Um, and while I run the entire agency, it’s a collaboration amongst all of us knowing that we’re not all experts at everything, but we need to work together to ensure that as many people as possible do not lose their homes, be it to eviction, be it to foreclosure, um, et cetera. So I think that that’s really the special sauce that makes the Waterfront Project so special amongst all of our other partner agencies, is that we really are trying to develop into this one stop shop. Again, we’ve been around for a decade, but I really do think that in the last year we’ve really entered into this new era of the Waterfront Project
Brad Caruso:
Without question. And with that, over to you, Lissette, how did you arrive at the Waterfront Project? And talk a little more about your, about your background, and obviously you provide a very integral component to the organization as a whole and to those you help with, with your legal background.
Lissette Diaz:
Sure, sure. Thank you. So I am, like Carol said, I’m also born and raised in Hudson County. Um, so this is my home. I’m the child of immigrants, so I’m first generation born in this country. And first to go to school, to go to law school, any of that. So it was definitely, um, a learning curve to <laugh> to sort of land where I ended up landing. Um, but I, yeah, I, I went to law school, um, with the intention of doing public interest law. That was always my love and my, my passion. After I graduated, I started my career in housing in Essex County. So in Newark, New Jersey where there was an excessive abundance of work, but I really learned how to practice there. And, um, from there I ended up doing a multitude of things. I’ve been a public defender.
Lissette Diaz:
I had my own practice for five years. I did workers’ compensation, I did family. Um, I came back to public interest at another organization doing domestic violence work. And then I, uh, also did housing for a little while in New York City. I came to the Waterfront Project. I was tapped to come in to run and to manage and to set up the survivor project that we have for sexual assault and domestic violence survivors. And after I was here, Carol came on board, we had some changes. And, um, I ended up in this position of legal director <laugh> sort of unexpectedly to get back into housing. Um, but, you know, housing was my first love, uh, doing landlord tenant work and housing work was really where I really learned how to be an attorney. And so to practice that area of law in the community where I grew up, but also where I live, um, and all the changes that I’ve seen happen here and all the communities that I’ve seen displaced from here has really, uh, it’s really a blessing to be able to do that, to do that work.
Lissette Diaz:
Um, you know, when we, when we talk about housing, we talk about tenancy and landlord tenant and there’s, there’s sort of ideological, uh, conversations that occur. But at the end of the day, if you don’t have adequate housing, like what else matters, right? If you don’t know where you and your children are gonna sleep at night, what else is there? So when we, when we have our clients, I think part of the role that that I have is really bridging the agencies and the organizations and the, the academics and the big thinkers and the policy bridging all of those concepts that come into play that really matter, but connecting them with the individual clients we have who are going to be or not be made homeless based upon the decisions that are made by somebody who has never met them and who doesn’t know that they exist, right? And, and that gap, the, sometimes what we find is that the needs of the individual clients that we serve can get lost when we’re talking about bigger picture items. So I think that’s a big part of my role here, is to make sure that I’m always speaking on behalf of our clients that, that we see in court that are facing eviction, that are facing homelessness, that are getting locked out. And we’re seeing it in record numbers.
Carol Sainthilaire:
I wanna say, I think that one of the things that makes the new leadership at the Waterfront Project, you know, it’s Lissette, myself, and Kayla, um, you know, our board is amazing and super diverse, but two thirds of our executive team is from Hudson County, and we’ve been here our whole lives and have seen, you know, as Lissette said, the changes. So when we have a client come in, specifically the Hudson County ones, um, we see our neighbor, we see our aunts, we see our uncles, we see our cousins, um, we see our friends. And I think that that just adds a little more oomph to our passion and the work that we do and our dedication.
Brad Caruso:
Yeah. And, and I think it’s so important that those that, you know, in your case, you’re directly, you know, helping individuals and, and there is a, a, you know, I’ll say a big complicated world that goes around that, which I’m sure, especially on the legal side, you have to deal with on a day-to-Day basis. And just different, I’m, I’m sure with all the, you know, crazy political climate that we live in, and, you know, laws not necessarily representing those of the masses always. And, um, you know, dealing, dealing with, uh, different laws that pass over time and COVID all the funding that came out, all the funding that didn’t come out, all the challenges that I’m sure people went through with losing jobs with, um, you know, not going back to normal circumstances, also probably created a, uh, whirlwind of learning for you both as well as, you know, a whirlwind of health that you’ve provided to, uh, to the world. Um, and, and I guess from that front, you know, can you talk a little bit about, maybe, maybe current times, you know, what, what is the housing industry itself in, in, um, you know, Hudson County, Bergen County area, Northern Jersey, I guess you could say. What, what is the, the climate of the housing industry right now as far as kinda what you’re dealing with and what you’re seeing.
Carol Sainthilaire:
So I’ll do sort of the overarching, and then Lissette, you can talk more about what you’re seeing on the ground. So, I mean, obviously in northern New Jersey, so waterfront projects is based in, uh, Hudson County, but we serve, um, for housing counseling and legal stuff, um, Hudson, Bergen and Union. And then we also have foreclosure assistance, which is, you know, sort of the Union North, um, in terms of our, our work. Um, and I think what we’re seeing is lots of challenges, high rent prices, uh, a competitive real estate market, limited supply of affordable housing. Um, that said, we can’t just build our way out of it. Um, and I think that, you know, the elected officials are now maybe seeing that maybe the tax abatements that were done to all of these luxury buildings, um, with zero affordability and them was maybe not the best idea.
Carol Sainthilaire:
Um, because what we’re seeing now is even people with vouchers that will pay the full rent can’t find units that are within the market rent. So if HUD says that the rent for a two bedroom apartment is $2,400, there are people that cannot find a two bedroom apartment for $2,400. So, you know, we’re sort of have that assistant in hand, like, Hey, we can help pay the rent, but if the rent is being set at $5,000 a month, which is a lot of what we’re seeing, you know, that’s sort of impossible. I don’t know how we can just bridge that that way. So that’s why the work that we do in keeping people housed, letting people keep their homes is instead of losing them, the foreclosure or being evicted really matters. Um, and, you know, we know that a lot of these, um, developers and property management companies are also looking at background checks.
Carol Sainthilaire:
Um, a bankruptcy will be gone in seven years. An eviction stays on your record forever. Um, and another piece of it that, um, is, you know, part of the housing market and the lack of, of housing in general, is that these, um, third party background checks aren’t regulated federally. So, you know, we could have had a landlord that filed an eviction against you, and then it was settled and by human error, um, you know, even if it was settled, that eviction might still be on your record or it’s public record that the eviction was filed, um, even if you weren’t actually evicted. So these are things that not only affect the person, um, facing the eviction right now, it’s also gonna affect their ability to access housing in the future. And that’s why what we do is really so important. And then Lissette really has all of the background in terms of what’s happening, especially at the courthouse.
Lissette Diaz:
So we’re seeing, we’ll call it a crisis, and I say this every time I speak to anyone, the system is really working as is. It was designed to work, so we call it a crisis, but the, it’s a crisis to those of us who are doing the work and to the tenants who are facing the eviction. But this is, this is the, this is how it was designed to work. And so we’re seeing record numbers of evictions, um, record numbers of people, of tenants being taken to court, and rental assistance is dwindling every day, less and less. Uh, we, we are in a system where 3% of tenants have legal representation and 90% of landlords have legal representation. So in and of itself, there is already a discrepancy. There. There is, there is an imbalance that that happens as soon as the complaint is filed against the tenant.
Lissette Diaz:
Um, as, as Carol said, third party background checks are not regulated, right? If there’s any, anything that, um, if there was any policy that anyone wanted to instill to make the process a little bit more fair and prevent homelessness, then at the very least there would be some regulation when it comes to these background checks. Because you’re not only affecting the tenancy that in this one tenancy that maybe this person gets evicted, you’re affecting their ability to rent again, you’re affecting, um, a child having to leave their school system because now the only place you can find an apartment is someplace else super different, super out of the way. You’re affecting, uh, now exposure to other health hazards, to asbestos, to mold, to other things, because you’re only able to rent something that’s a little bit substandard because that’s the landlord that’s gonna accept you because you have this eviction on your record.
Lissette Diaz:
It’s, there’s, that’s by design, right? Because it could so easily not be done that way. And the fact that that’s done by choice means something, which is what we are always, always, always on the lookout of seeing how can we help the individual person not find themselves in this position? Right? Um, but what we’re seeing is, I had read an article recently where Northeast New Jersey, which really means Hudson County Northeast, New Jersey, is the hardest rental market in the country. There’s 12 tenants for every one vacancy. By contrast, Manhattan has six tenants for every one vacancy. So it’s more difficult to rent in northeast New Jersey than it is in Manhattan, which is insane, right? That, that this is who we’ve become, where historically, northeast New Jersey is where you have an influx of immigrant communities coming in. You have an influx of all different diverse populations at all times.
Lissette Diaz:
And what we’re seeing is huge, huge populations being displaced, um, every day, and people being evicted and being removed from their homes. Again, only 3% of tenants have legal representation. And so very often the landlords are able to enter into agreements that are unfair, that are unconscionable, that are unbalanced, and the tenant doesn’t necessarily know any better, right? Or it hasn’t had a, a chance to really review it. And they find themselves in these terrible situations. They get removed, the rent goes up, the place gets remodeled, it’s rented for $2,000 more, and over and over and over and over, you have that process happening where it changes entire communities. The communities that Carol and I grew up in don’t exist anymore. Changes entire communities in very, very short amount of times. Um, and so we’re seeing all of that happening and really unfolding before our eyes, uh, every single day. I was in court this morning and there was 147 cases on the docket for one day,
Brad Caruso:
147
Lissette Diaz:
For one day. And that’s gonna be what it is until the end of December
Brad Caruso:
One day. And that’s one courthouse.
Lissette Diaz:
And that’s one courthouse in one day, right?
Carol Sainthilaire:
And three judges, Lissette?
Lissette Diaz:
Three Judges.
Brad Caruso:
Yeah. Let that sink into the audience to understand like how prevalent this is. ’cause that’s a, and that’s, that’s, that’ll repeat one courthouse in one jurisdiction, 147 people in one day, and then you have that till the end of December, <laugh>.
Lissette Diaz:
Yeah. And I’ll just clarify, 147 families,
Brad Caruso:
Families, because
Lissette Diaz:
Those are, those are filings. But with every filing comes a parent, a spouse, perhaps a partner, children, grandparents, aunts, cousins, uncles. It’s, it’s, you know, we, it, we always say, yes, the homelessness that may be faced by one tenant in that moment is faced by that one tenant, but it’s not, it’s a failure of the community at large. It’s not only a, it’s not always just, oh, you didn’t pay your rent, and so you don’t deserve to live here anymore. But there’s bigger things that come into play. And when one person is made homeless, that becomes an issue for the entire community, which is where it’s a public waterfront. It
Carol Sainthilaire:
Health, it’s a public health crisis.
Lissette Diaz:
It’s a, it’s a public health crisis. Exactly. And that’s where waterfront, I think we have really established ourselves as having a mission where, you know, we see ourselves as part of the community. What affects the community affects us. If we have these situations where people are being made homeless, it affects everybody, right? And it’s not just a situation of this one individual who we wanna toss aside and pretend like they don’t deserve housing. Everyone deserves housing. Everyone deserves housing. There’s no such thing as someone who does not deserve a safe, healthy, and I’ll say affordable, <laugh>, place to live. That doesn’t exist.
Carol Sainthilaire:
Hashtag housing is a human, right. <laugh>. Exactly. <laugh>. Like, it’s, it’s the truth. I mean, it’s, you know, we have Mayor Eric Adams across the river, and like everyone talking about public safety and our streets and our communities, communities are not going to thrive if there are people living on the streets because we put them there. And I think that that’s the thing that our elected officials and our policymakers have to understand, is that it’s this system. It’s the policy failures that have created this. We need more. And it’s not just we need more housing, we also need those wraparound services. That’s why I’m a huge proponent, you know, in, in supportive housing and making sure that our other partner organizations that we work with so much are also able to have the adequate funding so that we can serve people so that it, it’s miles, low’s, hierarchy of needs.
Carol Sainthilaire:
If you don’t have a place to sleep at night, how are you going to go to work? How are you gonna go to school? How are you gonna get fed? How are you gonna go to the doctor for your therapy appointment and get the meds that you might need? How are you going to, you know, stay sober, like sleep? I’ve been in homeless encampments before, and you’ll, you’ll see like, you know, empty vodka and beer bottles and you know, you’ll hear the, some people that are there, you know, sort of assisting, like, oh, well, they’re spending their money on booze. Do you know what it’s like to sleep outside in the winter here in Hudson County in a tent? Like, and again, this is where Lissette and I grew up. Like I’m sure Lissette had birthday parties at the park. I’m talking about up, you know, uh, in, in North Bergen.
Carol Sainthilaire:
And to see that with my own eyes and knowing that, like it’s the system we created that’s doing that. And, you know, to make it a little bit happier is I get to come to work every day and try and figure out how to make the system better. And, and it’s a fight. And there are days that are harder than others. Um, for Lissette, for myself and for the rest of our staff, we’re a staff of 30. And our staff reflect the communities that we serve. And, you know, we wanna make sure that no one, if we can prevent it, is losing their home. Um, but there’s only, there is only so much we can do, um, in the nonprofit field. We really need government to also step up and private companies to also, you know, they get lots of bonuses and, you know, are making record profits despite the fact that we’re, you know, there’s inflation and rents are going up and people are losing their jobs and people can’t afford food.
Lissette Diaz:
And I think it’s important to really, you know, we talk about how to, how to affect change and how to see these things to really acknowledge what’s actually happening. We pretend as if, for example, redlining isn’t a thing anymore, but we know that the majority, the vast majority of people being evicted are black and brown women. Black and brown mothers. And then we have these third party, uh, background checks and this tenant blacklist whose quote unquote tenant blacklist, which then makes it harder for black and brown women and black and brown mothers to be able to rent, other than in certain areas that’s red redlining. We don’t call it that, but that’s redlining. It’s the same thing again, designed to work that way. Done on purpose.
Brad Caruso:
Yeah. And that’s the, one of the biggest flaws of the system itself is, you know, everyone talks about, doesn’t talk about the fact of how hard it is once you’re labeled or once you are on a list somewhere, or once. I mean, how to get off that or how to get around that cycle. ’cause it, it affects everything. To your point, every company does a background check that’s gonna hire you. So now it’s not only your landlord that’s doing the background check, it’s the company that’s trying to hire you. So then how do you get a job when this is on your background and maybe to no fault to your own, or, I mean, listen, the pandemic, I I, my, my biggest complaint about the whole COVID-19 pandemic that occurred is that everybody’s gonna look at it like it didn’t happen. And they’re gonna be like, oh, you have all this stuff on your record.
Brad Caruso:
Like, do you not remember that the world ended for about three months <laugh>. And like, I have it in our business in a weird, in a weird way where I’m like, does everybody, did everybody forget that it was a very difficult time and no one knew what to do? And we were all very uncertain about whether we were gonna live or die every single day, and we weren’t sure. And and everyone’s gonna forget about that, and they’re gonna see the little piece of paper and oh, yep, it says that, uh, you did this. Yeah, no, I can’t, I can’t give you this job. I can’t rent to you. I can’t do this. So,
Carol Sainthilaire:
And I think part of, like, even looking at, you know, what it does to that person applying for the job, you know, the, the mother in this, it’s, how does it trickle down to even the children, especially, you know, black and brown children? Wow. Uh, immigrant children of, they had to miss a day of school because their mother doesn’t speak English and they had to go translate. Again, Lissette and I were that kid way back when, um, maybe not in court, but like going to doctor’s offices and things like that, moving around, like, oh, they get evicted, so now they’re gonna go live with, you know, my sister, but they’re in another school district. How are we gonna get the kid to school on time? Or maybe they’re missing days, or how are they studying in the middle of this chaos? And then they get bad grades and then they don’t go to college.
Carol Sainthilaire:
And then it’s like, it, it, it’s cycles. And I really look at this as the, you know, the, the dimensions of health, um, and looking at everyone, like it’s not just losing their housing. It’s not only losing this apartment, it’s all of the negative consequences it has. It’s, you know, I now know that child welfare in New Jersey is not removing children from households just because of housing instability. But until recently, that was a thing. And we know that kids that go into the foster system are 40 times more likely to end up as a chronically homeless adult on the street. So it’s all interrelated what we do and why it’s so important that, you know, even a group like you guys doing a podcast highlighting all of this. And, you know, I’m not saying the waterfront project’s gonna save them all, but I think that the conversations we have and the fight that we come into do every day, you know, it is helping 1500 people a year this year just to say, like the impact I asked, um, our intake to run the data of how many phone calls we’ve received year to date, 3,863 phone calls.
Carol Sainthilaire:
That doesn’t include the emails. And these are, you know, it could be that one client called multiple times, but no, this is 4,000 calls and we’re not even done at the end of the year. Um, and we’re now a staff of 30, but even six months ago we weren’t a staff of 30. Um, and we’re just gonna, this is only gonna get larger and larger. You know, it’s, I told Lissette what that number was, just like, oh yeah, we’re gonna get another 4,000 in the next six weeks as the court is seeing 150 dockets every day. I mean, just do the math one 50 times. How many, I know we have a few holidays, like we have four day, four days. The courts is clo, the courts are closed in November, and then what, two days in December? So do that math one 50 times. How many working days? That is
Brad Caruso:
Probably 200. So it’s probably 30,000. Yeah.
Lissette Diaz:
And when we talk about, like Carol was saying, we have all these, these vast number of people calling and we try to help them and we try to save them, but recognizing that, helping them and state, for lack of a better word to say saving, but helping them and, and saving the community. And it’s really saving ourselves. It’s really helping ourselves. It’s really us trying to make sure that we can all function as a society. And we just lose so much of that when we keep looking at people as at fault for falling on hard times as at fault for making a mistake for not knowing how to handle a situation for putting, you know, a relative died and they put money towards the funeral instead of paying their rent that month and the like, it’s, these are human things. And if you, it’s saying that someone who is low income, lower income, doesn’t have the right to have a relative die, doesn’t have the right to bury their dog, right? Doesn’t have the right to buy Christmas presents for their kids this year because you should only care about paying the rent. But why would they not able
Carol Sainthilaire:
Minimum wages able to minimum $15 an hour and the rent is how much. So even if they worked every waking hour and paid their rent, the rent is still gonna be more than their income ’cause their rent burdened. Right,
Lissette Diaz:
Right, right. Which is when we come back to it,
Brad Caruso:
The math, it’s not possible.
Lissette Diaz:
Exactly. <affirmative>, the math does not math <laugh>. Right? It just doesn’t work. And is when we come back to this concept of affordable, quote unquote affordable housing, who defines affordable, we wanna call it 30% of income and whatnot, but how can you exist in northeast New Jersey? And they call it, uh, you know, affordable housing, but if you’re paying $900 out of your rent and that’s 30% out of your income and that’s 30% and you’re paying that rent, what are you eating? What are you eating, where are you going? Where are you able to have a day’s worth of leisure and just say, I wanna go to the movies. Right. You can’t do it. <laugh> budget won’t afford it. You can’t afford it. You can’t afford it. You can’t afford to just exist as a human being in the community that you live in, that you contribute to because that’s where you spend your money.
Brad Caruso:
Yeah. And I think the other thing too, um, I volunteer in the fire company in my town, and the one thing I learned through that experience has been, I think a lot of people do actually wanna help. And a lot of people do wanna be a part of their community, and I think a lot of people don’t know how, or I think a lot of people don’t know how to ask the right people for help. Um, you know, maybe a little bit of ignorant comment. But at the end of the day, like it is, it is true. I, I know in working with people and seeing it, that I think a lot of people want to do good. Uh, it’s just you can’t ’cause the system’s designed that they can’t or they, they just don’t know how. And I think that’s where it’s so integral with the work that you’re doing to not only raise awareness to it, but to provide that outlet for help that someone can refer to you or that you can be that first line of phone call of how do I, someone may say, I don’t know what to do.
Brad Caruso:
And, you know, you can communicate them with the right way. You can talk with them through the process the right way. Um, so may maybe cover a little bit, you know, if you can a little bit further about, you know, some of the core programs that, that you operate. Um, and, and let’s say I am, you know, hey, I, I have my neighbors getting, you know, evicted and I wanna help them, but I have no idea how, what can I do, you know, what, what does that look like? And, and kind of what are some of those core aspects of how you do, I mean, you’ve talked about it a little bit, but I think, you know, exploring a little further would be helpful.
Carol Sainthilaire:
So we obviously have legal, and Lissette can talk a little bit about that more. But, um, we do, um, HUD certified housing counseling. So, um, the staff that do that work are certified by, um, the federal government to do things like, and everything that an attorney doesn’t do because it, they don’t have a docket number yet. The client doesn’t have a docket number, the housing counselors do. So that’s, um, habitability issues, emotional support, animals, service animals, um, unconscionable rent increases. Um, it’s sort of to help the, the client, the tenant that’s facing the eviction, um, sort of, or not even facing an eviction that’s going through some housing issues that aren’t an eviction yet, um, to help them through that. And a lot of it is also financial counseling and financial literacy and budgeting and things like that. Um, we also have a foreclosure, um, assistance program.
Carol Sainthilaire:
Um, we’re funded by the county to do foreclosure assistance in Hudson County. Um, and then we also work with HMFA, the Housing and Mortgage Finance Administration agency here in, um, New Jersey to do the Irma program. So we can assist homeowners that are facing foreclosure with up to $75,000 in assistance so that they can keep their home. Again, the attorneys help out with that as well. You know, the sooner people come to us, the sooner we’re able to help. Um, and we also just started doing first time home buyer classes, which is really great. And, you know, again, um, I’m a homeowner here in Jersey City. I love that I’m able to own a home in the, you know, in the county I grew up in. I live around the block from my Tia who’s been living there for 30 years.
Carol Sainthilaire:
Um, and being able to own a home and also have neighbors that look like me, talk like me, that, you know, being able to preserve that community is great. So being able to do the first time home buyer program with the city of Jersey City, um, we just started. And again, it’s, it’s really great. I’m hoping that we’re able to expand that so that we are doing it statewide. Um, and then I’ll let Lissette talk about legal and then the survivor project as well. And then what I’ll say, if you see somebody that needs help, you know, anyone tell ’em to go to the waterfront project.org, um, right on our banner, you can click, click get help, and you can fill that in. If you would prefer to speak on the phone, you can call our main line. Um, and intake, again, 4,000 calls in 11 months.
Carol Sainthilaire:
Um, it usually takes about 48 hours to get back to someone. Um, but we are doing our best with the call. We have an intake team of four people throughout the pandemic. It was one person and that poor person worked from the office every day during the pandemic. And now we’re at staff of four and we’re still getting slammed on the phone. So I think that that’s definitely, um, important to note. But, uh, we, and if we can’t personally help you because you’re over income, or, um, let’s say you’re out of the counties where we offer, we have attorneys on, on, in that courthouse, we’ll always refer you to someone. We’ll, we always at least give someone a resource guide or the resources needed. Sometimes, you know, intake will email Lissette and be like, I don’t know what this is. And we sometimes figure and we figure it out. Um, so yeah. So then I’ll let Lissette elaborate on the other
important work we do.
Lissette Diaz:
So I’ll start with the Survivor Projects. Uh, the Survivor Project provides legal advocacy and representation to survivors of domestic violence and sexual assault that often translates to restraining orders or, uh, New Jersey we call SOSA orders for survivors of sexual assault. Um, but really it’s a pretty broad category that we have. A lot of our survivors come in and they have housing issues, they may have custody issues, they may have employment issues, their employment employer or the landlord may be discriminating against them. So, uh, anything that you’re facing that involves the fact that you have survived domestic violence or sexual assault and you need help, assistance, advocacy, uh, we are here for that. Part of the project involves a lot of outreach, community education. We do consent workshops in local high schools where we speak to juniors and seniors who are about, especially seniors who are about to go off to college about what consent really means, what consent really looks like.
Lissette Diaz:
The fact that when you’re 17 and when you’re 18, those might be two different worlds depending on the behavior that is engaged in, um, because now you’re an adult and you’re facing different consequences, right? So, uh, what does consent actually look like? What does that mean? What rights do you have as a student on campus if, if something happens? And if you find yourself having, un having unfortunately been the victim of, of an assault or of a sexual assault, or of any kind of domestic or dating violence. Um, so we go over a whole bunch of things with the, with the, the high school students. And it’s a great, great program. We’ve, uh, really enjoyed coming out to the high schools. Uh, and then with our housing projects, uh, we represent tenants in Hudson County. We’re hopefully expanding that soon. And we are in court every day.
Lissette Diaz:
<laugh>, they know us by name, <laugh>, we’re there all the time. Um, you know, we, we see a lot of eviction cases. I mean, I’m sorry, a lot of, uh, non-payment of rent cases for eviction, but also a lot of what we call holdover cases where the landlord is trying to evict the person for reasons other than non-payment of rent. A lot of rejectment cases where the person isn’t even a tenant and the landlord is trying to remove them for other reasons. Sometimes it’s lawful, sometimes it’s not lawful. And the fact, as Carol said, the sooner you come to us, the more we can do for you. Right? Sometimes oftentimes we have people coming to us, um, very much at the last minute. And it may be that they didn’t know. It may be that they couldn’t get a day off of work. They might work at a place where they can’t make phone calls.
Lissette Diaz:
And so they couldn’t call us during lunch break ’cause their lunch break is only half an hour and they had a meeting with their kids’ teacher, right? There’s a million reasons why people come to us at the very, uh, what we say the very last minute, but for them is the first chance that they really had, um, to get over to us. And so we do our best with whatever situation comes through our doors. Uh, like Carol said, no one has ever turned away without either representation or advice or resources or referral. We’re never going to just say, oh, you’re over income. Good luck, <laugh>. See you later. We’re always gonna try to put you in a better position than you were when you walked in our doors in the first place. Um, and so, but yeah, we, we are definitely very, very, very busy.
Lissette Diaz:
Our legal team is a staff of, uh, seven attorneys. We are a paralegal and a case manager. Um, we try our best. Also, if anyone, you know, we have clients who may be suffering from mental health issues, may be suffering from other disabilities, uh, we, we really just try to meet our clients and the tenants that come to us where they are at. So my, my question, and I’ve told my, all my staff attorneys do it, and I do it, anyone that, any tenant, any client that I speak to, I say, what, where do you, where do you wanna end up? Where do you wanna be? We’ll try to find a way to get you to where you need to be, but what do you see for your life? How can we help you get to where you need to be in the next month, six months, three months, a year, whatever it is.
Lissette Diaz:
And I think a lot of times in that conversation with clients where we treat them as people, right? <laugh> as they are and as they deserve, is sometimes we learn, oftentimes we learn that they haven’t been treated as people from multiple agencies, multiple places, multiple offices from other private attorneys from a, in a million different ways. And so we really try our best to, as Carol in the beginning, have a holistic approach to the clients that we serve and to the community that we serve, to be able to, like I said, just we want you to be in a better position, in a better position after you leave us than you were when you came in the door. Whether that means saving the tenancy, whether that means, uh, mitigating the damages that are gonna happen anyway, you know, but we try our best to really, um, put the tenant in the client in a better position, the DV and the sexual assault clients as well, to put the client in a better position. But again, it’s putting the community in a better position. It’s putting ourselves in a better position. Ultimately, we would all love to be out of a job because nobody needs us anymore. <laugh>, right? That would be amazing. Um, so that’s, that’s, that’s the goal that we have whenever somebody comes in.
Carol Sainthilaire:
Yeah. I would also be, um, I totally forgot to mention, um, the eviction diversion work that we’re doing, which is, again, I feel like a combination of all of the things that we do. Um, but the state of New Jersey DCA, Department of Community Affairs, um, basically did this RFP and it was really smart in the sense of, hey, we have these flex funds that can pay for back rent, relocation costs. We have the resource navigation and we have the legal services. We didn’t get all three in each area, but you know, we, we’ve really been working really well with Dean Dafus and Michael Callahan at DCA to sort of be like, Hey, this is what we’re seeing. Um, so we have a team of what, three of like six resource navigators across three counties, Hudson, Bergen and Union. Um, and we’re able to assist them. Um, once they have a docket number and they’re facing eviction, they’ll get tied into legal services, not always the waterfront project because of, you know, contractual RFP things.
Carol Sainthilaire:
Um, and we are then able to sometimes assist with those flex dollars. So is it, hey, they got the warrant of removal, they’re gonna get removed. Can we get a storage unit and hire a removing company to allow a person to move with dignity and not lose all of their belongings? Again, things that we all have the privilege to be able to, you know, move either, Hey, you have friends with the van and let’s move, or I can hire a moving company and save my back. Um, but these are the things that the EDI or the CEDD, there’s so many acronyms in this in the housing world. Um, but the money from DCA has really allowed us to be able to do that. Um, we got $400,000 for flex fund assistance, which is, you know, really going to, I wish I could give money to everyone.
Carol Sainthilaire:
We can’t because they’re so limited. But I do think that that’s one, one program that, you know, again, is sort of that special combination of everything that we’re all doing. And adding in that rental assistance all at a, at a one stop shop, um, really also helps not re-traumatize a client. ’cause imagine having to go to five different agencies to be like, help me. I’m getting evicted. I’m poor. I can’t afford it. I’m gonna lose my home. I’m sick. And having to tell that story five different times. Um, and not everyone, you know, and here if we get a, an eviction diversion client, we’re all together, you know, the, the EDI team can talk to intake, can talk to legal team, can talk to the housing counselors, and we really are able to throw everything at the person. Um, as opposed to having them go while they’re already, you know, might be losing their job out of a job, sick, whatever, having to go to five different places to get the help we’re here, they can come and we help them entirely.
Brad Caruso:
Yeah. And that’s invaluable, that whole, as you’ve mentioned before, that holistic approach of helping somebody is, is invaluable. Uh, and it’s also important, you know, not-for-profits working together as well. I think the collaboration among, you know, ’cause not everybody can do everything. And there are certain specialty organizations out there, and I think, you know, nonprofits working together and partner. And one of the reasons why I did this podcast is I’ve, I’ve had some of my clients, like I didn’t know that I, about that organization and what they do, but they do exactly what we do. I’m gonna call them. And I’ve had a couple clients connect to each other, a couple prospects, you know, people that we talk to connect with each other. And, um, just everyone, you know, openly talking about it and creating that, that active chain of communication is, is certainly important among the nonprofit community itself.
Brad Caruso:
Certainly that all around services approach and providing that help to someone in need and, and someone that doesn’t necessarily know what to do or where to go, or, you know, as you said, might not have the time to go to all these places or might, you know, they have to a family to support. They have a job to take care of. There’s a lot of things outside of just managing some of the administrative burden that comes with dealing with housing, um, and the practical side of it as well. So, you know, it makes all the more important what you do. And, but I’m sure you know, in, in a growth environment, you’ve been, you know, the, the significant increase in demand of your, your services, you know, where, where does an organization like yours need help? You’re funded through contributions and government assistance as you mentioned. Um, but where, where does you as an organization, you know, need help from the public or, you know, if you were to say, um, that you needed something, what would it be?
Carol Sainthilaire:
I mean, of course, money. I would say that <laugh>, um, it’s less expensive to provide the free legal services that we pay to than to have someone have to enter the homeless system. So on average, cost per client, per our staff, per our staff attorneys not holistic, not entirely everyone at Waterfront, it’s about 600 bucks to help one client, um, that’s facing eviction. From the, that legal point of it, like the attorneys working on it where you know that any attorney on the street, I think the HUD approved rate for legal is like $215 to $250. So this is less expensive. Um, so definitely donations. We’re getting ready to ramp up our year-end giving. It’ll be my first year-end giving with the organization. So that definitely is it. Um, and I, and I will also say the, that private money, the non-government money, the non-discretionary funding, uh, which any of your clients or any nonprofit managers that are listening to this, you’re gonna understand that with government money also comes government restrictions.
Carol Sainthilaire:
We would love to have a looser AMI so that we can help people that yeah, might be making $125,000, but $125,000 in Jersey City isn’t much, especially if it’s a family. Um, so I just started paying my student loans back, uh, last week, so I’m like, oh, that hurt <laugh>. So, you know, if we had more fund, more private funding, so even individual donations or, you know, larger corporations giving us funds, we’d be able to help people at different, um, income limits, which again, would be really great. Um, we always need interns and sort of that administrative help. So we are all, and I’m always, you know, nagging the staff. I’m like, I need your data and I need your data in. Um, and it’s because they’re out there actually in court or helping the clients directly that sometimes, you know, it’s hard to keep up also with the administrative burden.
Carol Sainthilaire:
So we’re always looking for volunteers. Um, there are areas of expertise that, you know, I might be able to understand audits and, um, you know, be able to run reports and stuff. But, uh, technology has gotten a lot more advanced since I was, you know, doing data entry and data analysis in my previous gigs that, you know, if we had experts that wanted to donate their time to help me build a dashboard so that I could very easily, um, run reports, um, for, you know, for funders, unlike this is how many people we served. Um, and I would say that for the organization, I’d say system-wise is, you know, if, if the system needs to get better, maybe have some landlords that aren’t jerks, um, <laugh>, I’m just gonna say that, um, you know, I think that if we all saw each other as human beings with the right to exist, um, it would make our lives a little easier.
Carol Sainthilaire:
Like, we know evictions are still gonna happen, but the way people are treated, um, as they’re going through something so traumatic would, would make our lives easier. Um, I think being able to, you know, ensure that there’s cultural competency in dealing with things, you know, again, I know I’m going sort of like even the entire system in our humanities, but I do think that that’s something that’s free, is treating somebody nicely, um, especially when they’re going through something difficult would be really, um, would be helpful. Um, you know, we’re, I am trying to explore more partnerships with universities to, you know, I would really love to have a full-time social worker on staff, but I also don’t have the funding to bring on a full-time social worker on staff. So, you know, are there any, you know, a plea here, if there are any, um, universities that have social work programs or counseling programs that, you know, they would wanna have someone come do six months here on three months on, on credit and things like that. You know, we, that’s always welcome. And I know Lissette, you’re always hustling with law firms, so I’ll let you talk about any help we could get from the public.
Lissette Diaz:
We are open and happy to have attorneys <laugh> who are looking to do pro bono work, uh, who are interested in volunteering their time. We can of course, train accordingly. Um, but yeah, we’re definitely are open and as Carol said, to interns, to anyone who really wants to dedicate their time, I mean, on our end, I think that having someone come in who believes in our mission, believes in what we’re trying to do, believes in, in, in sort of the, the what we’re facing every day and in trying to make it better, um, we, we welcome that. We welcome anybody to come in, um, separately from that with law firms, with larger law firms. Um, I’ve had attorneys who are landlords, attorneys who we have very different practices. We have very, have had very different sort of trajectories in our careers, but one thing attorneys can agree on is everything goes better when there’s two attorneys on both sides. Whether we, we can disagree about the law, we can disagree about the case, but everything runs smoother in this system in which we exist when there’s attorneys on both sides. So, you know, in Jersey City that we fought for Right to Counsel, I think right to counsel is super important. Honestly, I would love to see it statewide. Um, I think right to mediation should happen in, in these landlord court.
Carol Sainthilaire:
That’s, we want, we want right to is mediation <laugh>, Billy’s doing it and it’s going really well. So stay tuned on that <laugh>.
Lissette Diaz:
But it’s a way to make the system function better and function more equitably and more fairly. Um, there’s a book by Matthew Desmond called Evicted, which I’ve, it’s my bible at this point with, with his career, and I’ve read it a bunch of times, but in there he talks about, uh, I think it’s based out of Milwaukee, but he talks about a time or sort of olden days where a tenant would be evicted. And the, the laws obviously were different there than in New Jersey, but they would be, all of their belongings would be removed by the officer, by the constable that came closed their door, kicked them out, removed all their belongings, and within 15 minutes the community would break the locks and move them back in because they just wouldn’t tolerate this mother and child and children and, you know, young kids being on the street.
Lissette Diaz:
And so I don’t think we’re ever going to necessarily see that again, but I think a culture shift where we start, as Carol said, where we start seeing people as human beings and understanding in this country, the vast majority of of Americans are a paycheck, two paychecks away from facing the same situation, right? And, and this idea of, oh, it would never happen to me because I would never, I’m, you know, smarter than that. I wouldn’t, it’s not always about that. People find life happens and people find themselves in very difficult situations. But even if, even if someone made bad decisions, even when someone made a mistake, again, the idea of saying that someone deserves homelessness, someone deserves to be on the street, that someone deserves to lose their home or their belongings. Uh, I think, I think we really need to get away from equating these difficult circumstances to the value of you as a person and, and your value in society.
Carol Sainthilaire:
And I would also say sort of to that is to the public, educate yourselves. Um, we, Lissette and I live and breathe this every day, um, so we know it. Um, but read books like Evicted, Poverty, The Color of Law. Um, those are all books that, even me in housing when I read The Color of Law is like, this is wild. There was public housing for white people and black people. And then what happened? White people were able to move out of the public housing and buy homes. Why couldn’t the black people move out at the same rate? Because they weren’t given mortgages. So then eventually all public housing became for black and brown people. And again, I’m making it very basic, but literally that’s redlining and talking about all of that and trying to create a more equitable system that shouldn’t be political. And unfortunately in the times that we’re in it is political. Um, but educate yourselves, read the history books because there’s truth in that. And the situations that happened that are happening right now and what we’re grappling to solve isn’t something that happened overnight. This is historical. And I think if people read, again, Evicted, Poverty by America and The Color of Law, just read those three and you’ll soon be like showing up at The Waterfront Projects being like, what can I do to help? Because it really is eye-opening.
Brad Caruso:
Yeah, I read a, I read a book when I was in, in school. The Rich Get Richer and the Poor Get Prison. Different concepts, but, but it like, it, it has a lot of similar con tone of like how the system got to where it is and why it’s a self-perpetuating system, to your point, Lissette. And it, it really opened your eyes to like, holy, holy cow. Like, this is awful <laugh> and and you realize it, but, but then what can you do about it? Right? I think we’re always trying to think about what you can do about it and what you can do about it is donate to the Waterfront Project. It’s to help organizations that are doing these things. Certainly a great discussion today. You know, Carolyn said, I really appreciate you having me on. Thank, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom.
Lissette Diaz:
Thank you. Thank you for having us.
Carol Sainthilaire:
Thank you so much for having us. Um, and people can just go to thewaterfrontproject.org. You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, if you wanna donate thewaterfrontproject.org/donate.
Brad Caruso:
Love it. And remember, I believe the, the hashtag use is hashtag housing is a human right. And, uh, oh, help your neighbor. You know, I think that’s one of the biggest messages I think we lose sight of. And to your point is that, you know, everyone’s a human. And you know, the easiest way to help someone is just be there for your neighbor when they need you and, and don’t turn your shoulder to them. And, uh, reach out to The Waterfront Project if you need them. As mentioned, thewaterfrontproject.org and, uh, warriors out there. Thank you for listening and subscribe to me back here for another episode of Withum’s Civic Warrior in the near future. Bye everybody.
