Transcript:
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Brad Caruso:
Welcome to Civic Warriors, brought to you by Withum. On this podcast, we bring the conversation to you, sharing engaging stories that motivate and build consensus in the non-profit community. This podcast is about the innovators, the leaders on the front line of adversity, guiding lights in the non-profit industry affecting change. And through their stories, we can all join forces to become civic warriors. Hey Warriors. Welcome to today’s episode of Civic Warriors. Brought to you by Withum, I’m your host, Brad Caruso, leader of Withum’s not-for-profit practice. Our guest today, Jon Kessler, is gonna share his story as a firefighter and some very important fire prevention tips to help keep you safe and your family safe . Warriors, the fire department is near and dear to my heart. I’ve personally been involved for more than five years now and you know, I really just got involved at the fire department for a few reasons.
Brad Caruso:
One was I kept coming across bad car accidents and I kept being the first on scene, which I really had no idea what to do and felt a little embarrassed. So, you know, from that perspective I always wanted to learn a little more. Plus my father-in-law was the chief of the department for a long time and an active member. My brother-in-law is an active member. My uncle was a ex-chief, so I kind of got guilted into it a little bit, but certainly it was probably the best decision I ever made. Got it involved and really just wanted to be knowledgeable in crisis to be able to help those in need and really pass that along or pay it forward with education With us today as Jon Kessler, Jon is the assistant chief of the Montgomery Township New Jersey Volunteer Fire Company no. one. Jon has more than 20 years of experience with the fire service and because volunteer firefighting doesn’t pay the bills, he’s also an owner and prominent real estate agent here in New Jersey. I’ve learned so much from Jon over the years and I brought him on because he has such a knowledge and such a charisma about the fire service and leads up our fire prevention group internally on our fire company. So certainly the perfect person to share with you some tips and tricks and some things that can really help keep us all safe. So Jon, welcome to Civic Warriors.
Jon Kessler:
Thank you for having me.
Brad Caruso:
So I have just shared a little bit about my backstory as a fireman and you wanna share your story about how you got involved. So
Jon Kessler:
I got involved because as a realtor every home I sold required a municipal fire safety inspection before closing. And a lot of the inspectors were my own age and we be, this became my peer group, my friends. So initially I joined as what we call an associate member. You know, I helped with the business end of the firehouse, but soon I felt pretty bored with that and had to admit there was an excitement to watching the trucks go out with the sirens and lights on. And I made a decision that I’m going to take my membership to another level, go to the fire academy, get the appropriate training, and it’s been an obsession ever since.
Brad Caruso:
So at what age did you start doing that?
Jon Kessler:
In my mid thirties. I’m almost in my mid fifties.
Brad Caruso:
Yeah. So for everybody out there and it’s never too late, I started when I was 32, Jon started right around that age as well. And then we get a lot of members across our fire company that, you know, some of the folks that come in that are, you know, 18, 19 looking to get started into the fire service. But also we get a lot of volunteers, you know, throughout their life. Um, we just had one member go through who is in his fifties who just went through the fire academy. So you know, it takes a lot of hard work and dedication but certainly becoming a firefighter, if it’s been a dream of yours or you wanna pursue it, visit your local fire company and see what it’s all about. Cuz it’s certainly very rewarding, which Jon can definitely attest to.
Jon Kessler:
And to Brad’s point, there’s age appropriate skills and needs for everybody. Everything we do is a team effort and there are heavy things to carry. Sometimes there’s ladders to climb, roofs to be on and not everybody is comfortable with everything but there’s something you can do and whether it’s driving, whether it’s helping get equipment to the scene, whether you wanna be the guy in the house on fire.
Brad Caruso:
Awesome. So where I wanted to start with, and I think some of this is time relevant given that we’re going through fire prevention time being October, what are some top tips, Jon, from your perspective when it comes to fire prevention, what are some of the first things that you think about that are things that man, everybody should know this.
Jon Kessler:
Okay, the first thing that thankfully we used to talk about smoking a lot, right? Smoking in bed. And fortunately most people don’t smoke anymore so that problem is gone. The problem we’ve run into quite a few times are people who clean out their fireplace and put hot embers into a garbage can and go to sleep and before they know it, their house is on fire. So be very, very careful. Don’t put anything hot in a garbage can. Make sure your smoke detectors are all operational. You know, if they start beeping or going into a wonky state, you know, go to Lowe’s, get some batteries and if it’s not the batteries replace the detectors. The other thing that we taught our kids was to have a meeting place. So our kids were told if there’s an emergency you go to the mailbox. That simple. And when we first moved to Montgomery, my wife did set our garage on fire and we did have an emergency.
Jon Kessler:
I wasn’t a member of the Montgomery Fire Department, I was a member of a different fire department. But when things calmed down and thankfully it was a small fire and the garage is saved, it was intact. You know, we looked around and there were our very young kids at that moment standing by the mailbox. So just one of those things that you wanna plan ahead for. The other thing that I am a big proponent of, they sell these collapsible rope ladder type things for window egress. If you are stuck upstairs and your house, god forbid, has a fire and you can’t get down the stairs, we have a couple of these ladders in our house that we could just throw out a window and climb down. And my final thing, which is really a relatively new thought in fire prevention, is to sleep with your doors closed.
Jon Kessler:
So again, god forbid you have a fire in your house, having that door closed to your bedrooms will buy a half hour to 40 minutes that you might not have otherwise if you can’t get out. Right. And finally they suggest you have a fire extinguisher in your kitchen. But I say this with an asterisk next to it, should you have a small fire, that’s okay, but should it start to become more than you can handle, get your loved ones get out. You know, that does not mean you’re obligated to fight a fire that’s bigger than what’s in your purview. You have those small grease fire in the oven, you could put that out yourself, but if suddenly the curtains are on fire, just go, just leave. Get everybody get out of the house.
Brad Caruso:
Yeah, those are great. I know our fire company visits the schools at this time of year and I was there this morning and that was the one thing I made sure to tell all of the kindergartner, first and second graders was make sure you have a plan. I was asking kid, do you have a meeting place? And I was very happy to hear several of them like, oh yeah, mine’s the mailbox out front. Right to Jons point, right. So a lot of the kids are definitely, they hear this from us in the fire service. But if you’re a parent and you listen to this, you know, just have that conversation. You know, make sure you’re in any emergency. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a fire, but emergency situations, the key is that we constantly educate our kids and that we have a plan. It’s as simple as saying, hey, that big tree out front, anything goes wrong. You know, we go hang out by that big tree. That’s right. My kids know that. So yeah, hopefully they remember it <laugh>, we shall see. So I guess on that same topic, what are some of the most common reasons why fires start?
Jon Kessler:
So it’s interesting because it evolves over time to different things. So now what we’re challenged with our lithium ion batteries, these batteries, you know, very often people will replace the original manufacturer’s battery when it goes bad with the cheapy version and sometimes there’s a reaction. But the problem with these batteries is that they don’t go out like a normal fire. They’re very, very persistent and they’re like those trick birthday candles. They just keep catching on fire. You know, Brad I’m sure remembers this past summer we had a fire that did not start with ion batteries but the homeowner told us eventually that he had a load of stuff with uh, lithium ion batteries in the basement and we just had to keep going back for days. You know, there’s smoke coming out of the basement, it would start up again. So that’s a big challenge.
Jon Kessler:
Be careful with those types of batteries. We still see people put the embers, the hot embers in the garbage can. That’s not too uncommon. Amateur electrical work, that’s another one that tends to cause problems. You know, some of these things are penny smart pound foolish. I know it’s a lot cheaper to try to put in a breaker yourself or get the uh, generic lithium battery to replace it. However, you know, even if you are insured, which we all are mostly when you lose your home, you are really outta sorts for a year. You’re in a hotel, your pets are somewhere else, your kids are in the bed next to you. Nobody has a private bedroom. It’s a terrible process in the best of circumstances. So, you know, ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Brad Caruso:
Yeah, no doubt. And you called out your wife before, I will call out my mother who put hot EMS in a garbage can and shout out to the uh, brick township fire department for putting it out and saving my mother’s house because thank God somebody drove by. <Yeah.> And this is good for you to know if you drive by and see a fire outside of someone’s house and it’s not in a fire pit called 9 1 1, report it. That’s great. You know, start, start that process as early as possible. And they got there the garbage can was right up against the house. They got there and put it out before it spread. <Yeah.> And it was an older house so it would’ve went right into the attic. You know, total loss. It would’ve been bad.
Jon Kessler:
And there’s no penalty for calling 9 1 1. None. Even if we get there and it turns out to be something benign, that’s perfectly fine. The the last thing I will say, are candles right, don’t go to sleep with candles burning. It’s just a bad move. We had a fire a few years ago, Brad, I believe you were there. Christmas, someone had a beautiful display on there, a fireplace mantle left, candles burning on that display, you know, woke up in the middle of the night with a house full of smoke. They tried to actually put that fire out themselves with a fire extinguisher. It was beyond that. They’re lucky to be alive. So candles are another biggie, especially this time of year.
Brad Caruso:
Yeah. Anyone that’s a firefighter or that volunteers in a fire company and their wife tries to light candles, we put ’em out right away cause it’s just, yeah, it’s never good. You know, maybe pice smells great for eight minutes but yeah, it never leads to anything. And if you leave the house, absolutely not even if you leave the room. Yeah. People always say, Oh well I’m in the house. I’m like, Yeah, but what if it falls? The candle rolls onto your carpet. Like it it, there’s just too many dangers.
Jon Kessler:
The cat jumps up and knocks it off.
Brad Caruso:
The dog gets mad at the mailman again and he comes up and knocks the candle off. Yeah. Bad news. No more candles. Get rid of candles and we’re not getting any commissions for saying anything. So yeah. So I guess on that same topic, you see a lot of obviously houses, you see a lot of positives and hazards. What are things people should be looking for inside of their houses? You talked a little bit about this, about a fire extinguisher. What are some of those things that people should be on the look of or outside of what you just said? Any other like hidden dangers that we should be thinking about?
Jon Kessler:
Carbon monoxide. The biggie, right? You can’t see it smell it tasted but it’ll kill you. So you should have a carbon monoxide detector within 10 feet of all your bedrooms. Many of us have gas forced air heat and if that’s not burning correctly and that happens over time, these machines just stop working like they’re intended. You could have a carbon monoxide issue and there’s no way to know unless you have those detectors. So make sure you have those. Sometimes you know, things that people have done for years that never caused a problem cause a problem. So again, war stories. We had a blizzard and a blackout and an elderly couple had a generator to power their house running in their garage, you know, even with the garage door open. But the exhaust was pointed towards their house and thank God they had carbon monoxide detectors, they’d be dead today. Their alarms started going off. They were very, very high readings, high enough that as firefighters we had to use our scba, our air packs, our masks so that we can go into that environment. It’s something that’s really not a joke. It’s something you gotta be very careful with. And having those detectors is, is what you can do.
Brad Caruso:
No doubt. And if you have detectors, check ’em. Cuz they usually say right on ’em. Whether it’s a combination detector, they could have smoke in carbon monoxide detection, could be a central system or it’s a standalone unit. I’ve seen them where they plug into the wall, people say change your clocks, change your batteries. If you find that your detector doesn’t stop going off. I mean I think one of the things I’ve learned over the several false alarms we’ve been to over the years is a lot of the times too, the detectors go bad after a period of time. <That’s right>. So that’s another common thing I I always see to be on the lookout for there’s a date on them and then, uh, usually so many years after that date go bad.
Jon Kessler:
If you’re lucky, you get 10 years on average it’s five to seven years. But they can go bad sooner than that too. So if it’s wonky and the battery replacement didn’t work, just get a new one. Also today you can buy smoke detectors with a 10 year sealed battery that theoretically you shouldn’t have to do anything. You can’t change the battery if you want it to. Uh, but if it goes bad, it’s time to replace it.
Brad Caruso:
Yeah. So recapping. I mean I think there are a couple really good things that we’ve talked about that are common important things to do. Don’t like candles, close your doors. Make sure you have smoke detectors and carbon monoxide detectors in the right places. On every floor in every room if you can. You know, even in your basement there’s gonna be sometimes carbon monoxide. It could come when your utilities fire up or shut down. You know, talking about some war stories. When we had hurricane Ida last year, Joh and I were having some interesting encounters over the days and one thing we noted is, you know, a lot of basements in our town were flooded in that happening. A lot of the boilers and hot water heaters were the water was shutting out the pilot light and the water was rising. Well when the water receded, you know, there’s still gas actively going into there. And so we are getting a lot of calls for carbon monoxide and for natural gas leaks. That’s right. And a lot of them were alarms going off and we were going to the house and making sure that we were shutting the gas off. But uh, I know that was a common thing too, was from all the flooding, the gas was still running.
Jon Kessler:
And Brad, you bring up a really good point. So if ever you’re in your house and you smelled gas, you know the utility company puts that chemical that smells like rotten eggs. We’ve all smelled from one time or another. Just get the heck out and call 9 1 1. You know, if it’s something very minor, like you see it’s the stove and you can turn off one of the, the burners and open a window. Okay. But if you’re smelling gas and it’s not something you could attend to quickly go <laugh>, get out, get away from the house, call 9 1 1. You know, again, it’s not common, it doesn’t happen a lot. But once in a while you hear about a house exploding and and that’s what it’s from.
Brad Caruso:
Yeah. Me and my wife Ashley, when we had our son Chase when he was one, we were going into our house we were living in at the time and we, we left the house, went to dinner and we came home and we opened the door and just got like a massive smell of natural gas. Yeah. And I was like, oh my gosh. And I quickly looked inside, which at the, this was before I joined the fire service. I probably shouldn’t even have like went inside at all. But uh, my common sense was not triggering at that moment. So I walked inside, had no idea. Then I walked out, we called my wife’s dad who happens, you know, was the chief of the fire department and he’s like, Yeah, get out, call 9 1 1, drive away as far as you can from that house cause there could be a serious problem.
Brad Caruso:
And what we found out later, what happened is one of us, cuz we had the baby carrier bumped into the, I think we did, we bumped into the stove cuz one of us hit the knob on the stove enough that just a little bit of gas was coming out. But when you’re out of the house for three hours, that gas fills up pretty, pretty quick. Yeah. Oh it’s, and uh, thankfully none of us are smokers and none of us had anything that triggered it. Yeah. Our house would’ve blown up. So to Jon’s point, calling 9 1 1 and getting out of the house is one of the, just the most common things. And some people it’s not the first reaction, but better save your life than your property.
Jon Kessler:
That’s right.
Brad Caruso:
So something near and dear to my heart being my kids. I wanna talk just for a couple minutes about what should you tell your kids? You know, we talked a little bit about a meeting place that’s obviously a very important strategy, but how should we be talking to our young children about fire prevention?
Jon Kessler:
So obviously, uh, we don’t want our kids playing with matches. We don’t want our kids playing with lighters and fireworks though the laws have changed and they’re more available. You know, we want them to know that all of this has to be under adult supervision. That’s a big message we’ve been hearing since we were kids. Right. But it still rings true today. If there is an issue, it’s important that they know to get out. You know, there have been some very, very sad cases where kids went back into a house on fire to grab, you know, some toy that they love. You’ll get another toy, you’ll get another whatever it is that you wanna get. Just, it’s important to know that there’s only one of them and it’s time to leave. When we had the garage fire that I mentioned earlier, my kids, they did the right thing.
Jon Kessler:
They were at the mailbox. My wife ran in to get the photo albums and <laugh>. Thankfully she was alright. But you know, you can’t replace people. So that’s an important message to get out. It’s very hard to get your kids to sleep with a door closed. Right. I know that. You know, I guess the younger you start that, the easier that will be. And don’t play with outlets, plugging things in and electrical stuff and especially not candles, you know, none of it, it none of it. So that’s the message. Fire is one of those things that kids shouldn’t be afraid of. They shouldn’t have nightmares or lose sleep about it, but they should know it needs to be respected and it needs to be supervised if they’re involved with anything to do with fire.
Brad Caruso:
If there is a fire in a house. Right. And let’s say, let’s say the kids are home in the parents’ home. What should people be telling their kids about what the first thing they should do is, let’s say there’s smoke and they hear the detector going off. Right. What do you think they should be doing?
Jon Kessler:
So depending where the fire is. So if you have a garage fire for example, and we’ve had some of those right Brad where the car was on fire in the garage, it’s much easier to get out of your house and account for everybody. And I think getting out first is more important than even calling 9 1 1. So get out of your house account for your whole family. Make sure you have everyone. If it’s a situation where the interior of the house is on fire somehow and you cannot get out of the room again, closing that door to your bedroom and feeling for heat is critical. And if it’s hot, don’t go. What you can do once you’ve closed that door is you can alert the first responders that you’re there. Hey, look up here, you know, I’m, I’m trapped. I can’t get out of the room. Let people know where you are and let them know that you know, there are also people in the back bedroom, you know, on the other side of the house and there’s a window in the back that you could get to them that way. The more information we know about who’s in there and who’s not in there is critical. So when we arrive on a fire and often the chiefs are the first people there, you know, that’s my first question. Is everybody out? Hearing, yes is a whole different playbook than hearing.
Brad Caruso:
No, it’s terrifying actually, as a firefighter, the last thing you wanna hear is that there’s a child trapped in the house.
Jon Kessler:
Yeah. Yeah. It really is. So getting out is critical. You can replace everything. Everything. You know, I, I know it sounds horrible. Brad and I both have pets. We hope that they get out, we hope they survive. But you know, your kids and yourself are really the priority. If, if you could get your pets out too great, I hope you do. But often I thought if I’m stuck in a bedroom and our dogs sleep with us, could I really get a 90 pound dog down the ladder? That’s not cooperating with me. I guess somehow some way we would do it, but have that meeting place get out then call 9 1 1 when you can.
Brad Caruso:
And pets, you know, dogs especially are much more perceptive and much more life survival skills than humans have. Yeah. So like people’s first reaction is either, is either to hide or get somewhere that they perceive as safe. Like sometimes you’ll hear people say, Oh I’ll go in my basement. Which is probably the last place you want to go cuz the house could collapse, but dogs will find the way out. Dogs will go straight to the front door and start hitting it. Yeah. Whereas people will not always so Right. But I guess in some positive vein, I don’t know about cats. Cats are kind of strange, but.
Jon Kessler:
Yeah, you, you know, thankfully most find a way. But again, to go back in a burning house, you know your kids without a parent, your partner without a spouse. Listen, I, I love our dogs to death, but you have to consider a big picture and, and, and let’s just hope that never happens to you.
Brad Caruso:
Fire service wise. I know when we pull up to a structure fire, as Jon mentioned, you know that generally the chief would get there first or someone gets there first and kind of sizes it up and looks at it. But the first five minutes of any fire are absolute chaos. There are a lot of things happening all at once. You know, our first priority is firefighters, is life safety. You know, one thing I’ve learned too through us is if there is someone inside and you say there’s someone inside and we can go inside, we will and we will try to find them and we’ll try to get them out. <Yeah.> However, one of the hardest things, and I pray to God I never have to come across this, is when someone says there is someone in our house and we say we can’t go in and there could be a time in our life for that, you know, if a house is fully involved, it’s not safe for anyone even us to be in there. And that’s a really hard thing to understand. But I hope that never happens.
Jon Kessler:
I hope so too.
Brad Caruso:
So that’s why it’s so important that Jon’s repeating get out of your house, like the house can be replaced, the people can’t.
Jon Kessler:
That’s right. Uh, you know, Brad brings up an interesting point. There are two terms in the fire service, tenable and untenable. And we’re trained to make a call where there’s no way a person can survive in these conditions. They didn’t survive. We hope never to have to make that call. But it, it is what it is.
Brad Caruso:
Yeah. Jon gets paid more money in the fire service than I do. So, uh, yeah, he can make that call. <laugh>,
Jon Kessler:
I get zero. Brad gets less.
Brad Caruso:
<laugh>. That’s where that joke comes in. We get zero, we get free food every once in a while. I mean that’s a benefit. Yeah. So clearly a lot of things that are important, closing the
doors is important. I know, uh, just commenting on that again, we’ve had a, this happened several times where a car was in the garage that caught fire. Yeah. And some of the times the door to the garage was closed and some of the times the door to the garage was open when it happened. And if you go check out the construction of your door to your garage, it, it’s usually a metal door. There’s protective material that are on it and it will prevent the whole house from catching or the smoke cutting in in the house when that’s closed, when it’s open it kind of just floods in or two completely different scenarios. So when you’re leaving your house, make sure your garage door is fully closed. If your car is on fire and you can, and let’s say that you happen to be able to close that door, not saying go back into a burning building, but if you can close that door and then get out, it will probably save a lot of your property as well.
Jon Kessler:
That’s right. And you know, Brad, speaking of saving property and cars and doors, another thing that I’ve noticed is if your cars are in the driveway and you have a house fire, pull your cars out of that driveway and drive them up the street. Because I have also seen the situation where cars that weren’t on fire originally in the driveway become on fire when the house fire gets outta control or there’s an explosion. So, you know, it’s horrible not to have your house. It’s even worse not to have cars. I’ve thought that many times. Just get your car down the street out of the way so the fire trucks can stage and do what they need to do. But it’s all about preserving property.
Brad Caruso:
Yeah. So obviously a lot of good information here if you listen to this and, and take away just basic things, it really goes a long way and don’t wait until an emergency to figure it out.
Teach your kids how to get outta the house early. Teach your, you know, family members. If there’s a fire, this is what you do. Have smoke detectors that work and actively keep up with that because that’s good. Prevent defense in the event something happens. So
Jon Kessler:
That’s right.
Brad Caruso:
All good stuff.
Jon Kessler:
Absolutely. And again, carbon monoxide detectors, those ladders, they’re pretty cheap that you can get from Home Depot. They fit in a box, you throw it out the window and it just unravels.
Brad Caruso:
So obviously we are from a volunteer fire company in your own town. For our listeners out there, obviously a lot of fire companies, I think it’s more than 70% of fire companies, if not more than that are volunteer. You know, volunteer fire companies certainly operate, generally speaking off either contributions from the public or distributions from the town depending on how that works in your town. And so, you know, there’s always another very important reason why we’re here on this podcast. And you’ve heard me with a lot of the organizations we’ve brought on. Jon, from your perspective, how can our listeners support a fire company?
Jon Kessler:
So you can always financially support the fire company and most volunteer fire companies have a link on their website where you can donate. However, in my opinion, the best thing you can do is to volunteer. And again, if you are someone who doesn’t want to be involved with the emergency service end of it, we have a lot of business that needs to be attended to. We have associate members who handle our insurance, our finance, our bills, our budgets. We do need help with that. You know, our membership changes over time. People retire, leave graduate school move away. So there’s always help that’s needed. And if you are interested in the emergency services end of it, the nice thing about the volunteer fire service is you could put your foot in the water and see if you like it. You don’t have to go to the fire academy immediately.
Jon Kessler:
You can go on calls as a probationary member. You will not be put in any kind of danger zone. We call it the hot zone that you’re not qualified to be in and you know, give it a few months and see if you like the environment, the action, the training. Some people really take to it and then they advance to become firefighters. You know, they go to the fire academy, we take the same course that our career counterparts take and some people decide it’s not for them and you know, want go a different way. But most fire companies, the way to volunteer is just to stop down, find out when their meeting nights are. I’d say more than 50% it’s Monday night at seven o’clock and say, you know, I’m interested in getting involved.
Brad Caruso:
And if you want to support our fire company, our website, mtvfc1.org, we have a Donate Now button there. We appreciate any financial contribution and as Jon said, we are fully volunteer. We don’t receive compensation to do the work that we do. So certainly that support goes straight back into the fire company to provide those services. Whether it’s purchasing equipment for your fire company, whether it’s feeding the firefighters, which is probably the most important thing.
Jon Kessler:
That’s important too.
Brad Caruso:
Uh, hungry firefighters not always at its best, but you know, certainly we look forward to that.
Jon Kessler:
That’s right. And we do find it challenging to keep a cook for a very long time.
Brad Caruso:
That’s true. Right? Yeah. Interestingly enough. Yeah. So if anyone is a, is a chef and you don’t wanna be a firefighter, any fire department will be welcome to have you as one of their members if you’re a chef.
Jon Kessler:
Especially ours.
Brad Caruso:
Especially ours.
Jon Kessler:
Especially ours.
Brad Caruso:
So with that, Jon Kessler, our assistant chief over here at the Montgomery Township Volunteer Fire Company, we really appreciate your time. My pleasure and you so much for, for joining in Civic Warriors. Yeah. And Warriors. Thanks you for listening. Remember. And my last 2 cents here, you know, the fire department is really the last line of defense when it comes to fires. And it’s up to all of us to implement safe practices, to avoid catastrophic events. But you know, as you know and you hear from Jon and myself, when you call for help, firefighters like ourselves will be there for you and do everything we can in our power to help you and to keep you safe. Feel free to subscribe and meet us right back here for another episode of Civic Warrior soon. Thanks so much for listening and we look forward to seeing you soon.
