Tackling The Global Waste Crisis

Civic Warriors Podcast Episode 16: TerraCycle, Inc.

“Realize your power.”

Tom Szaky, Founder and CEO of TerraCycle, Inc., and board chair of TerraCycle Global Foundation discusses with us the biggest considerations when it comes to a topic many people don’t fully acknowledge to be an issue: garbage. Where can garbage be found? Everywhere… even in our water! Waste is an issue that Tom underscores everyone in the world should be inclined to care for. Learn what impacts garbage has negatively had on the world, but more importantly what positive impact we all can have and what initiatives have been implemented due to TerraCycle’s passion for change. #CivicWarriors #WithumImpact

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This podcast was transcribed through a third-party application. Please disregard any misrepresentations.

Brad:
Hey, warriors, today’s guest on Withum’s Civic Warriors is Tom Szaky, Founder and CEO of TerraCycle, Inc., and Board Chair of the TerraCycle Global Foundation. When thinking about our world and the environment, we often take for granted one important concept, and that’s garbage. When you eat half a hot dog and throw it away, where does it go? When you have a nice cold Pepsi bottle and throw it in the recycling, can, where does it go? Does it actually get recycled? Is there a better way to actually treat waste? How much does our consumer behavior actually drive the creation of waste? And is there something that we can do to change that? Tom is a pioneer in this space and has written several books on the topic of rethinking about waste and his company TerraCycle is doing just that. One really important factor is the level of control we have about how to shape our future. If every human on this earth did their small part, we can make a huge difference. If we changed how we buy and what we buy, we can make an impact. If we are conscious about where the garbage goes and make better decisions on where it goes, we can change the world together. Have you ever heard of the great Pacific garbage patch? If not, you should. You should understand that every piece of plastic you throw away ends up somewhere. And a lot of it ends up in waterways and oceans. And depending on where you live in a developed country or a developing country, the consequences grow exponentially. The TerraCycle Global Foundation was formed in 2018 with a mission to address the complex challenges of collecting and recycling waste in emerging countries and communities. The TerraCycle Global Foundation engages with local communities in emerging region software collection and recycling platforms for waste with a special emphasis on preventing plastic pollution from entering our aquatic systems. Their inaugural platform was launched in Thailand and collects plastics from rivers and canals before it ends in our oceans by leveraging a fleet of locally constructed and service river cleanup systems. Their efforts are making a significant difference in the world. Acknowledging the impact we have through our buying habits is huge. So Tom, in your opinion, do you feel that big businesses truly have control over our behaviors to the extent of influencing and our level of waste output?

Tom:
Big companies are not in the business, right? To give us what we don’t want because convincing us to do what we don’t want is incredibly difficult to do. It’s much easier to figure out what we want and then to give that to us in the most convenient, affordable, and amazing way. And if you’re really a genius, you’ll figure out what we want, that we don’t yet know. We even want. That would be like the most genius level of this. So here’s why that’s important. What, you know, we control, you know, what is out there, right? And this is one of the, you know, I love this when I travel is to go into a supermarket because when you look at a supermarket and you look at what is on the shelf, that is a direct reflection of those people’s desires who live there. And it’s not just what is on the shelf, but how much of what is on the shelf is on the shelf. It’s a, you know, and if we stop buying a certain thing, less of that will appear and more will appear of what we do buy. And this is the crazy part is that we feel like we have no control yet we have objectively all the control. And this is important because we’re driving this immense vehicle, this immense, you know, system blindly. So it’s not like we have to get away from this whole, we are sheep to the slaughter to, and shift our perspective to we are in fundamental control and then respect that control. It’s sort of like, you know, we are taught to be mindful and respect when we drive a car because that’s a big object that can kill people if we drive it incorrectly. So we are conscious, we are aware we even have a license to operate. Right? Um, we need to do the same when we consume, because we are driving an even more destructive vehicle. And the last thing we can do is sit there and say, we are, you know, we have zero control because that is like driving completely blindly.

Tom:
Yeah. So that, it sounds complicated. Right. Um, and you know.

Brad:
My simple brain can wrap itself around.

Tom:
Well, let me give it a shot. Right. I think that the way you do that is the one person we can affect is ourselves. Right. And we start by changing how we behave. Uh, and that’s, and it’s simple in this world of physical, like environmental damage and garbage. It’s what we buy. It’s the one behavior we have to effect. So we start changing that. Then we, you know, maybe influence our friends, our family, to, you know, to maybe think about it, similar choices. And why is that the one and only Genesis point, because policy is just popular is just popularity. You know, usually what becomes law is what is popular. So give you a good example, right? Like suddenly, you know, we were outraged because on our Facebook feeds, we started seeing, you know, turtles with straws up their nose. Those have happened objectively in around 2018 and we all got pissed off and we got pissed off loudly politicians who are basically in the business of popularity, right. Uh, I mean, they get, they get their job based on popularity and then they maintain their job based on popularity, they are in the business of popularity, saw that it’s a very popular thing that hates straws, and so they pass laws in certain States, they ban them. That’s it. Right? That is how most legislation is created is what is popular. Right. And so that may seem vapid, but it is what it is. So what makes popularity is you starting something, me thinking it’s cool following you. And then our friends following suit. And suddenly we wake up and that shit’s popular. And then laws get passed, businesses, react, infrastructure is enabled and we’ve woken up in a whole new situation, right. It’s actually really, you know, it is a complex crazy thing, but it begins with that. And why that is so important is because without that personal action to change, all we’re doing is hoping others will, and then we’re paralyzed, right? So that’s what we can do where we are today. Then, you know, if we want to broaden that, you know, and think about how to go beyond that and sort of look at other things. It’s how can we influence the world in what we do so we can influence in where we work. And we can try to bring the same type of change to our vocation, whether we work, you know, no matter where we work, right. We can start that influencing that organization and trying to do the same effect, not on a personal level, but on an organizational level. And same thing goes, make it popular and other organizations start following. And then we can broaden, uh, even more to think about how can we then, you know, uh, help, uh, or bring, you know, these sort of thinking, you know, to places that are really disadvantaged and may not even have the ability to think about these things at the moment, because maybe their minds are focused on things that are, you know, that’s, uh, more directly we affecting their ability to survive. This is where, I mean, this is for us, you know, it was one thing to do all of this in developed countries, right? Uh, at least what we try to do through TerraCycle and it’s worked, uh, and so on and growing, but why it was so important to create a foundation is because we were looking at, you know, some of these places around the world where we really wanted to work and there was no other way to do it than do it through a NGO, you know, a model. Right. Um, but I think that’s the sort of order of what we do at it. And then what’s nice about that is it’s greatly simplifying all this ridiculous complexity and sheer scale of the issue.

Brad:
Right? How so from, from what perspective, when you say it’s it’s know simplified?

Tom:
Down that we sort of, you know, focus it on what we can do as our actions. Right. Then it distills down. You don’t have to think about, like, if you, if you simplify all environmental harm down to the act of consumption, you don’t have to understand, you know, the difference between fracking and a, and a and different types of energy consumption just consume less energy. Right. You don’t have to think about the externalities of, uh, you know, uh, uh, let’s say, you know, um, uh, free range farming for protein or for, for cattle versus slaughterhouse farming, don’t do either just don’t eat meat. And then you don’t have to think about the impacts of either, right. It actually becomes a really distilling approach and suddenly the overwhelming, like, what do I do? I’m, you know, it’s so ridiculous of a problem goes away and it’s actually quite clarifying.

Brad:
Right? Yeah. There’s no question about that. And thank you for explaining that. Cause I, I think the more you break it down to that simple level, I think the more that, the more that you realize how much control we have over it. Um, so.

Tom:
All of it. Yeah.

Brad:
Yeah. So from your perspective, I think, I think what, um, you know, what opened my eyes, I think a little bit more, and I think what’s, what’s, uh, you know, somewhat relevant to this discussion is, you know, looking at some of the, some of the, um, I don’t wanna say financial metrics, but some of the statistics or information that helped people understand, you know, the monumental issue that, that you are currently solving and trying to solve and, and understanding that, you know, the, the sheer magnitude of the issue at hand. Right. I think when I read about, and you mentioned it a little bit, but you know, when you hear about the, I think they call it the Pacific garbage patch. Like when you hear about that and you realize that, you know, I think you mentioned somewhere that it’s, it’s the size of Texas and it’s 10 meters deep and it’s like, wait, what this-

Tom:
Yeah. And it’s not just, you know, it’s it’s, as more science has been done on it. Here’s the, here’s the crazy part, you know, we’ve been doing, uh, work, you know, in, in ocean plastic, all over the world, uh, collecting it, uh, and processing it into, uh, into new packaging. I mean, here’s a bottle, you know, this is a dish soap bottle, number one, dish soap in the, uh, in Europe where you can sort of see it’s made from ocean plastic and where the ocean plastics. So to supply chain there, long story short, you know, the more we learn about it, the more we’ve realized, it’s not just one garbage patch. It’s literally everywhere. I mean, it’s already in our drinking water. I mean, literally if you’re drinking water, there’s microplastic in it today, there is that level of plastic pollution in all aquatic systems, everywhere. There may be different density, like, you know, certain hotspots. But if you go to the Mediterranean, it’s covered in garbage, you know, uh, if you go to, you know, places you wouldn’t expect off the coast of Canada, you know, there’s garbage washing up. Uh, it’s, it’s absolutely everywhere. You know, there’s a great quote from the Ella MacArthur Foundation that there’ll be more plastic in the, uh, uh, in the sea than fish, by weight in 2050, and that’s really happening. And it’s only accelerating. Right. And it’s happening because, and it’s, and look, we can point today to emerging countries and say, shame on you, you know, Thailand and Cambodia and Laos. And, you know, but it’s, it’s put into perspective. The city of New York used to take all of its garbage 10 miles off shore and dump it until 1980.

Ashley:
Yeah. Which wasn’t that long ago.

Tom:
I mean, that’s within our lifetimes more or less, right? I mean, that’s nuts. And yes, in developed countries because of our wealth, we were able to afford to stop and pay, you know, the higher prices to landfill, which is basically putting all our garbage in one place, like controlled litter or incinerate, which has burned for energy or recycle, which has recovered the material. You know, we’ve been able to do that, which are luxuries. And now, you know, a lot of that is happening in other parts of the world, but we’ve been using the ocean as our landfill. And, you know, it’s horrible. It’s terrible. I mean, it’s, and it’s not just, you know, the, the strange part is humanity tends to come to these things selfishly first. And I know it sounds horrible, but like, if you take the organic food movement, you want to guess, and you may know, but just sort of throw a question to you. Why, what is the number one reason people go to organic?

Ashley:
Because it sounds good.

Tom:
Ashley said, because it sounds good.

Brad:
Quality perceived, perceived quality and lifestyle of the livestock before you eat it.

Tom:
You guys are way too awesome. No, absolutely not. What do you, what is the most selfish reason you go to organic?

Ashley:
Because it’s hip and cool and it adds to the image of whatever you’re trying to be? Something along those lines.

Tom:
It’s, it’s the number one reason, uh, statistically, everyone in the world, people transitioning to organic is because they perceive it as more healthy for them. That’s the most selfish, right? It’s not the birds and the butterflies and the bees and the, any of that stuff, which is what it should be about. It’s about, I will be healthier. That’s why people choose organic and, or my kids will be healthier. Right. And the, you know, people moving to organic because of something that isn’t a selfish reason is in the single digit percentages right now, Ashley what you said about like coolness is a selfish reason, that’s in the same bucket, right. So it’s personal health. Maybe it’s my, my perception, but it’s all about me, me, me. Right. That’s why, you know, we, we, uh, uh, we switch, right. And this is sort of one of the interesting things in the environmental movement and the social, you know, sort of business movement is you have to unfortunately play into that, right. To get people to do more benevolent actions. And then it’s unfortunately the way the world works, but it’s good to at least be eyes open to it. You know?

Ashley:
Definitely.

Brad:
I think. Yeah. And I, that, you know, that, you know, to be honest, it was one of the main reasons why, you know, we, we started running with a podcast with working with non-for-profit organizations and working with, you know, charitable mindsets and people like yourself that are, that are addressing some of these bigger issues, uh, in a real way. And it really opens your eyes when you understand and get, and just understand very simple facts like that. Like, just understanding the why behind consumer behavior, the why behind, uh, you know, why a problem exists, the why behind, why we don’t fix it, the why behind economically, why it makes sense or doesn’t make sense. I think all those things are so relevant in, in actually solving these issues. And they’re all very simple things and we all get so caught up in our, you know, in this thing. And we’re like, Oh yeah, this thing has got, you know, when you talk about atheism, this thing’s God now. And it’s, yes, it’s awful. But at the same token, you’re right. It’s how many likes can I get on Instagram? Because I put this picture of this organic food that I’m eating.

Tom:
I think the biggest lesson I’ve learned in, in, in, you know, running a, a, you know, or chairing a foundation on running a social businesses, we need to, as actors in that space, right. Really scale what we do and scale the purpose, right. We have to influence, you know, folks to either donate money or to somehow get involved. You can’t do it on your own. You have to, you know, basically be out there advocating for people to get involved. And the biggest, like unlocking principle I’ve learned in doing this is that we, you have to empathize with how they see the world, even if you don’t agree with it. Right. Because we sometimes are sort of holier than now. And it’s like, why don’t you see it our way? And like, you know, live in it, you know, in, in, in the way the world, we see it much more powerful to say, I’ll accept the way, the way you see the world, not just accept it, I’ll empathize with it, which is way more powerful than acceptance. And I’m going to show you why helping my cause. You know, whether for the TerraCycle foundation, it has to do with, you know, solving river plastic in Thailand, or, you know, other types of waste in India or whatever it may be, how that will help you forward your approach to the world. But I’m not going to ask you to change your point of view on it because that’s so immensely difficult.

Ashley:
That seems like the best approach, but it’s also so much more of a difficult approach. Cause you think when you, when you talk about the discussion of garbage, why it’s bad and you talk to people or talk to us, and then people hear the conversation of how vastly garbage is impacting the world. And even like you said, this was an issue, a huge issue. Things that people wouldn’t have even thought were that big of an issue up until 20 years ago, there were things going on that were so devastating. Like people don’t even believe that. So you think hearing those things would be enough, but it’s actually not enough, which is the craziest part. You said, there’s so much devastation. There’s so much harm. There’s so much pollution and it’s affecting XYZ. That’s not even enough. It’s almost like, how do you make that topic cool to the math is how do you, how does that trigger with them so that they then do something because the issue alone doesn’t do it.

Tom:
Oh gosh you’re right. Yeah. I completely agree with you. I think it has to be cool, like on trend, which is such a horrible way to look at it. Right? And it has to be highly personal, right? Like, you know, what, what got the plastic movement going? Uh, one was, you know, uh, the sort of zeitgeist raising of, you know, like what blue planet do to, as a, as a film did that, uh, uh, sir, David, that bro put out, you know, the turtles with straws up their nose, you know, all those social media images of when you cut a fish open, it’s covered in plastic, that’s one major thing. And then the other was the fact that there’s microplastic and everything now. I mean, it’s in our water, which is a very personal sort of thing. It’s like the organic food thing it made it very personal. I think those two things together are incredibly powerful forces to make us change because the moment we start talking about big atrocities, what’s the difference between big, very big and ridiculously big? You know, it’s our minds, can’t grapple with it. It’s all the same. And then if it’s not right in front of us or affecting us, the world is so big. It’s hard to like keep that in our minds and keep it relevant when maybe in our day to day lives, we don’t see it right in front of us. And I think that becomes a critical aspect to keep highlighting and focusing on. And it’s challenging sometimes in, in the work, especially in, in, uh, in, in social enterprise where it’s like focusing on the things that like you were saying, you know, Ashley on, uh, on, you know, trendy or personal, it may be like, why am I spending time on that? How is that important? But it is so important to, to build the movement.

Amanda:
It’s almost like we need influencers, like Instagram models to take over this movement, Fire Festival style.

Tom:
Right? Yeah. Totally but in a non Fire Festival type of way. Right.

Tom:
Yeah. No, no, exactly. Right. I think that’s, we have to like look at those things and we shouldn’t frown on them. We should say, those are the tools of our moment and how do we leverage those tools, you know, to, to create the best possible outcomes.

Brad:
Yeah. And I think with that, just, just under, you know, I think, uh, the personal connection I’ve done surveys before, and that’s always the number one reason why people give to charity. And also the, the number one reason why people want to address an issue is either personal, personally affected whether it’s, you know, someone in my family had cancer. So I want to support a cancer society or someone of my, um, immediate circle was it was, it was affected or in my backyard, there’s a big pile of garbage that, you know, it every day affects me. That personal connection, I think is the, is the main reason why people donate and why people kind of help charities. And what’s interesting about it. I think, I think when I’m, when I’m, I’m curious about is how do we bring that relevance with what you’re doing with the foundation to the audience? And I think putting perspective to it, you know, what is, when you say there’s a lot of plastic in a river in Thailand, what does that look like?

Brad:
Yeah. To give you a visual, you know, and it depends on the river and it depends on the time, but there are moments where you can’t see the water, it is just covered in plastic top to bottom. Right. And then you may say to yourself, well, that’s all the way literally around the world in Thailand. Like how does that affect me if I’m in Ohio? Right. But one of the amazing things about our aquatic system is that the amount of movement of this material, you know, a piece of packaging out of a, a, you know, say out of a river in Bangkok can easily wash up, you know, on a beach in Florida. And not only will that happen, but it’s going to degrade because gonna be eaten up by fish, by microorganisms, it’s going to degrade because of all the bacteria and the, and the UV light that it has exposure to. And it’s going to dilute into the water. That’s going to be eaten by fish that we eat. I mean, the fish we eat no matter where we are, it comes from all over the world. I mean, we’re literally eating this stuff. It’s an end up in our water and it’s just going to become an omnipresent part of our lives, increased cancer rates. I mean, isn’t it amazing that cancer rates used to be going down for awhile. And recently they started increasing, uh, and I’m not saying it’s all about plastic, but it’s about all these factors together. And so it is a highly personal, uh, piece, even if it’s happening halfway around the world, it’s just at such a heightened level. And it’s not because, you know, people want to see that happen. It’s because there’s simply, in poverty, you just don’t have the resource to spend the type of money we spend on keeping our environments clean. I mean, that’s expensive and we spend on it, it’s in our city taxes here. It’s, it’s a, you know, it’s built into our cost structure,

Brad:
Really it comes back to economics.

Tom:
I mean, in the end you got to, in all these cases, follow the money. It usually becomes very enlightened.

Brad:
Yeah, it is interesting. So, uh, with, with, um, the terrorist cycle global foundation, um, you know, one of the interesting things that I see and I really appreciate, um, is on your website. Um, you have a section in here that says, how do we partner with you, you know, partner with us. Can you talk a little bit about, about how either an organization and individual, or, or another can, uh, can partner with you? I think there’s a couple of things listed, but I’m sure you’re-

Tom:
Absolutely, I’m a start with the individual, right? So, um, we are a public charity, so we do rely on donations. Uh, and so you can donate through the terrorist cycle foundation, that’s a TerraCycleFoundation.org, website. Um, and we welcome any level of donation, you know, to, to the cause and where that money goes is directly, uh, collecting, uh, uh, and cleaning up rivers all over the world, uh, focusing in right now in Thailand, uh, and the new projects coming up in India. So that’s one way another way is look at who are, is funding like the big funding sources, you know, which would be like the Coca Cola Foundation, the PepsiCo Foundation, and tell them they’re doing a good job because that will show that they should do more of that. And it may even encourage other organizations, uh, to, to be a part of it, right. So it’s important to applaud, you know, uh, organizations out there that are making sizable contributions, I mean, big six, seven figure amounts to help this move forward. And those organizations have done that. And then if you’re a, a company, you know, we’d love to hear from you and think about how we could, uh, uh, partner on an even grander scale, uh, to be able to bring these solutions and other solutions in the future, uh, to bear and really do them consistently and for a long period of time.

Brad:
That’s awesome. Yeah. And I think that, that, that partnering factor is, I think, you know, other agencies partnering with you, I think, you know, right now you’re working with, you know, local on the ground, um, organizations and others, I think that’s that that really helps drive, uh, an impact, right? When you try to do it all yourself, it’s hard, you know, when you’re not in the market or you’re not physically there, but having local on the ground support and, and other organizations that already have a infrastructure I’ve found has, has really, uh, driven impact more than, than otherwise. So, um, it’s cool that you’re doing that as well.

Ashley:
I was going to ask if, so, if you were to tell an individual, like we were talking about earlier, that it has to, it has to feel personal to them, so it has to touch them. So when you’re talking about something that technically, technically really touches everybody and really should impact everybody, it’s not as specific as cancer, as vast as that is, or another illness that might connect with one person over another, this really should connect with everybody to some extent, because like you said, we’re drinking water that has plastic in it. So really everyone. So when you think about it like that, and then you can potentially have organizations that work with you, what would be, if you had say five bulleted points, although I’m sure they could be, um, vastly elaborated on as well. But if you were to tell an individual so that they could see this as a, I could do a few things every day, or maybe just within the next month, I could do something that makes an impact so that it seems a little bit more in their reach to make that impact. Cause you were saying too, like so large of an issue. Some people have an issue maybe even wanting to try and jump into it to be a solution because they think, I don’t know how to make an impact. If you were to tell a specific person or give advice to an individual, um, what would be a few things you could say you could do today, they would make an impact and help support your cause.

Tom:
Yeah, absolutely. I think the first thing I would do is echoing what we said earlier is really think about what I purchase and think about a purchase as we are actively voting with money for the future we want with the things we buy. There’s one thing I could leave this whole conversation with. It would be people centering on that. Um, and that’s hard. I mean, I’m just a much a hypocrite as everyone else, you know, it’s really hard, but that would be the first thing I would at least be eyes wide open. Um, then I would think about making sure that I’m sending a message with my voice and with my money to companies that are really trying to make a change and applauding them and the opposite to companies that are silent on the topics that I care about. I care personally about waste. So I would focus there, but people may care about different things as well. But I think it’s, I would highlight to use my voice in my day to day activity. So I don’t need, you know, it’s not to change my life completely not to reinvent everything, you know, drop everything. Um, you know, people have a lot going on a lot to think about, but to use my voice, uh, you know, comment on, you know, these companies, uh, social media accounts, uh, you know, uh, people, they do read those very, very clearly and most importantly to think about how do I vote with my money that I think, and then, you know, if you’ve done that, then you can really broaden, right. And I think go to much bigger places and, you know, and think about how to get even more involved.

Ashley:
Great. Yeah. Cause I think people, uh, we’ve, we’ve talked about this before, but I think people sometimes are intimidated and then, uh, maybe intimidated isn’t the correct word, but they know the importance of it, but then it just gets washed away with their day to day issues. Right? But everybody is drinking water, you need water to survive. So if your water is polluted with garbage and this directly is impacting you, so to, to have a few things, tiny things that you can think about every single day makes it more manageable. And then I think like you said, then it’s a jumping point for more engagement with a cause. But yeah, those are great tips. Cause they’re, they’re easy to do. It’s just that little extra thought, just put a little extra thought into certain things.

Tom:
And realize your power right. Like realize in fact how much power you wield. I mean, that’s, you know, pretty amazing, right. I mean, we wake up and we’re like, Oh my God, I am way more powerful in the world than I ever thought I was.

Ashley:
And that’s a takeaway too.

Tom:
Yeah.

Brad:
And we all love power.

Tom:
Why not?

Brad:
Yeah. All right. Cool. Um, I know we have a running against time here. Uh, any closing thoughts, anything else that you feel relevant to us? I mean, you shared a lot of great. Really appreciate the time that you took, and this is awesome.

Tom:
A real pleasure to chat with you guys really, you know, thank you. Uh, Amanda, Ashley and Brad for your, for your time today. And, uh, thank you for, you know, uh, spreading awareness to the TerraCycle Global Foundation. I mean, please folks do check us out at terracyclefoundation.org. Um, and uh, I really appreciate you caring about this topic and, uh, and thinking about and talking about it and hopefully, uh, uh, you know, people will leave with a little bit more empowerment and uh, if anyone’s interested in the work we do definitely check us out and we’d love to share with you and get, have you be as involved as you’d like to be.

Brad:
Awesome.

Brad:
Yeah. Thanks so much. And before we go, I just want to, I want to share, I read in your book. I laughed about, I laughed several times and I know you have, I can tell you’re a very, very humorous individual. Um, my favorite thing that you write about is, is the mummified hotdogs. You’re like, you love mummified hotdogs and before we leave. My favorite thing, I think you wrote was, uh, was, um, you know, burying people in boxes is probably a bad idea. If you just buried him in the ground and composted them, you’d have less of a chance of becoming a zombie.

Tom:
There you go.

Brad:
I’m like, there we go. I’m not going to get incinerator, be buried in a box. I’m going to make sure they compost me.

Tom:
There you go. Why not? Right? You return to the earth even faster.

Brad:
Yeah, exactly. So thanks so much time. I really appreciate your time.

Brad:
Hey warriors, thanks for tuning in. On the next episode of Civic Warriors we talk with Ron and Natasha from Newark Trust for Education about the future of education and how to make a difference in your community. Make sure to subscribe to Civic Warriors and thanks for all your support. Have a great day.